February 2011 - P2P-Foundation - lists.ourproject.org

Re: [P2P-F] [P2P Foundation] New Comment On: BIBO - A Standard for Stable Currencies
by Roberto Verzola 07 Feb '11

07 Feb '11

There seems to be a flaw is Marc's argument below ("leave an interest-bearing loan device on its own and debt will grow towards infinity"): Interest must be paid regularly or the loan will be called in. The monetary system's design does NOT include allowing interest due to grow indefinitely. So, any model that simulates the process should assume either regular interest repayments (to ensure that interest due does not grow indefinitely) or a loan termination process kicks in. While it is true that fixed interest payments, over an infinite period of time, appears to accumulate to infinity, the accumulated total will be actually be a finite value if one takes into account the time value of money (1 dollar a year from now is worth less than 1 dollar today). If the discounting rate is 1%, for example, , then an infinite stream of $1 a year is actually equivalent to a finite $100 today (i.e., $100 deposited at 1% interest will give an infinite stream of $1 a year). Roberto P2P Foundation wrote: > There is a new comment on the post "BIBO - A Standard for Stable Currencies". > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/bibo-a-standard-for-stable-currencies/2009/12… > > Author: Marc > Comment: > A typo correction in upper case > > Ardeshir wrote: > > “My argument against Marc’s position is that current lending practices, even WITH INTEREST, are not inherently unstable in PRACTICE, because in PRACTICE, even according to common lending practices, loans are NEVER issued for unlimited amounts of time; and thus the interest on them never grows towards infinity” > > Our argument is not that loans must grow to infinity to be unbounded, which is what Ardeshir’s argument necessarily implies. But rather our argument has always been that whatever amount of growth that takes place if it is towards infinity it is unstable. Common lending practices do grow towards infinity by definition, so by definition they are unstable period. > > If we take Ardeshir’s statement that because loans do not go on forever they are not unbounded, therefore they are stable. it then implies that in order for INSTABILITY to manifest loans must go on forever. But that is not the definition of instability. The definition is that any growth TOWARDS infinity is unstable no matter how limited that growth is! > > The test is quite trivial, leave an interest bearing loan device on its own and debt will grow towards infinity, leave an interest free loan on its own and debt will remains constant. The former exhibits instability and the latter does not i.e. is stable. > > Marc > > See all comments on this post here: > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/bibo-a-standard-for-stable-currencies/2009/12… > > To manage your subscriptions or to block all notifications from this site, click the link below: > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?wp-subscription-manager=1&email=rverzola%40g… > >

1 0

Re: [P2P-F] [P2P Foundation] New Comment On: BIBO - A Standard for Stable Currencies
by Roberto Verzola 07 Feb '11

07 Feb '11

On the BIBO debate: In addition to the sustainability issue, may I also point out a social justice issue: a privileged section of the population (bankers) are allowed to create *money out of nothing* temporarily, and then, from that conjured fund, earn interest which is permanently theirs. An ordinary citizen like me is not allowed to conjure such money, lend it to a bank as deposit, then close the deposit after a year, destroy the conjured money, but keep the interest for myself as real cash. (Indeed, why should I destroy it? I would deposit it again!). That is why bankers who resort to fraud to make even *more* money are truly greedy -- they are not satisfied with this super-special privilege they already have to earn interest out of conjured money. On Ardeshir's point that "loans are NEVER issued for unlimited amounts of time": Banks do open credit lines to favored/established customers, who do not have to apply for new loans, pay them fully over time, reapply again, etc. Since these credit lines do not have a fixed time period, they are in effect loans for indefinite duration, and as long as the bank is in business, and the borrower remains in good standing, the latter will be paying interest indefinitely on the average level of credit that he is using. Roberto P2P Foundation wrote: > There is a new comment on the post "BIBO - A Standard for Stable Currencies". > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/bibo-a-standard-for-stable-currencies/2009/12… > > Author: Ardeshir Mehta > Comment: > Sepp writes, on January 29th, 2011 at 10:18 am: > > [QUOTE] > > Ardeshir wrote: > > <i>"Don’t get me wrong: I am against interest. But the argumentthat interest NECESSARILY and INEVITABLY causes instability is clearly incorrect."</i> > > What causes instability in the current system, in my view, is the fact that a large part of all extant money (up to 90 %) is being created on anongoing basis by commercial banks as they grant loans to customers. Those loans are burdened with interest, and thus the majority of the money weuse to mediate economic interactions is by the nature of its creation burdened with interest. Thus the majority of our economic interactions are only made possible if we consent to pay interest for the money needed to mediate them. THAT is the source of instability in the current financial/economic system, not the mere fact that interest exists. > > As a matter of fact, Marc argues in his paper that CURRENT LENDING PRACTICES are unstable, and he proves that statement by calculating the interest on money loaned. He never said – as far as I know – that interest NECESSARILY and INEVITABLY causes instability. > > Ardeshir seems to be attempting to shoot down a strawman’s argument that he himself put up. > > [END QUOTE] > > I should have been more clear. Marc claims that current lending practices are inherently unstable, AND that they are unstable due to the presence of INTEREST (for, as I understand Marc's argument, if interest were abolished, even current lending practices would not be unstable). And he claims that the instability results from the fact that INTEREST is unbounded: that is, approaches infinity. My argument against Marc's position is that current lending practices, even WITH INTEREST, are not inherently unstable in PRACTICE, because in PRACTICE, even according to common lending practices, loans are NEVER issued for unlimited amounts of time; and thus the interest on them never grows towards infinity. In other words, there is a limit after which, in PRACTICE, interest does NOT grow. Thus what I am saying is that Marc's thesis is altogether theoretical; it does not apply to what happens in PRACTICE. > > Also, as I understand Marc's thesis, the problem he identifies has nothing to do with debt *per se*. As I understand Marc's thesis, as long as interest is abolished, growing debt would not be a problem; nor would money created exclusively as debt be a problem. I myself don't agree that debt is not a problem as long as interest is abolished, nor that money created exclusively as debt is not a problem; and I have written a paper on the subject which can be found on line at > > http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/Debt-FreeMoneyIsBetterThanDebt-BasedMoney.… > > Best wishes. > > See all comments on this post here: > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/bibo-a-standard-for-stable-currencies/2009/12… > > To manage your subscriptions or to block all notifications from this site, click the link below: > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?wp-subscription-manager=1&email=rverzola%40g… > >

1 0

Re: [P2P-F] weak vs strong ties as wrong dilemma
by Samuel Rose 07 Feb '11

07 Feb '11

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton(a)acm.org> wrote: > I am fascinated by the current explorations concerning social media and how community formation and spontaneity are enabled. I find a great deal to digest, and much thoughtful analysis in the recent threads. > > Although it is not material to the clarification of weak and strong ties as a false dichotomy, this one passage brought me up short: > > " ...what is destroying our opportunities for individuality and creativity, subverting us from realizing our human potential is not that we are tweeting about trivialities, but that the governance of our planet has been taken away from us." > > The hyperbole is appealing, but I wonder if there is something more important here. When, if ever, have "we" possessed the governance of our planet? Indeed, what can it possibly mean to give ontological standing to the notion of planetary governance and suggest that it has ever existed? > > I ask this because is it perhaps more the case that we have before us the opportunity to gain something, not that we ever lost it. > > - Dennis > > I see you point and it is a good one. There are some ways in which we lost at least some freedom over our environments over time as the industrial revolution emerged. I can think of the example of a farmer in Canada, who's ancestors came to Canada generations ago to seek freedom from tyranny in Europe, and who is now subject to legal system manipulations from companies like Monsanto that threaten to take away his livelihood and force him to buy and use products he never wanted to use in his operations (because their patented strains of corn contaminated his and Monsanto came out and discovered this) For me, the meat of the article is the idea that weak ties and strong ties is the wrong dilemma to focus on. I think this is true. I think we need ties that are geo-physical local *and* "network" local (people around the world that have any degree of connection with you that you at least become aware of them). Fracturing and isolation weaken the value people can get out of all of their connections. > -----Original Message----- > From: p2p-foundation-bounces(a)lists.ourproject.org [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michel Bauwens > <https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/2011-February/000401.…> > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 07:01 > To: p2p-foundation > Subject: [P2P-F] weak vs strong ties as wrong dilemma > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > -- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: samuel.rose(a)gmail.com http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan

3 7

mondragon exploits workers, polish strike
by Michel Bauwens 07 Feb '11

07 Feb '11

http://trustcurrency.blogspot.com/2011/01/mondragon-cooperative-built-on.ht… Nicholas, Kevin, or others, a commentary for publication in the p2p blog would be appreciated, Michel -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

3 5

Fwd: [Commoning] The Communism of Zeitgeist: Science or Science Fiction?
by Michel Bauwens 07 Feb '11

07 Feb '11

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andreas Exner <andreas.exner(a)chello.at> Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:00 AM Subject: [Commoning] The Communism of Zeitgeist: Science or Science Fiction? To: commoning(a)lists.wissensallmende.de *http://www.social-innovation.org/?p=1800*<http://www.social-innovation.org/?p=1800> _______________________________________________ Commoning mailing list Commoning(a)lists.wissensallmende.de http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

2 4

philippino organic transition
by Michel Bauwens 07 Feb '11

07 Feb '11

Hi Roberto, I wonder if you could comment on this for publication in our blog, see http://www.yesmagazine.org/blogs/john-cavanagh-and-robin-broad/buying-only-… ? -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

1 0

Re: [P2P-F] library?
by Michel Bauwens 06 Feb '11

06 Feb '11

Hi Mark, I can't find your reference to that formulation in Jay's book, I only see "44. Patronize and support your public library" Our wiki has indeed next to nothing on (public or commons) libraries, to I keep the tag http://delicious.com/mbauwens/P2P-Libaries, as I was myself a librarian for 12 years, We do have http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Intelligence, which is if you like, about 'virtual libraries', I would welcome more, but am not close to that world anymore, I have put Vesa in cc, as perhaps he knows of other commons-related library projects, Michel On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Mark Petz <ravenwyn(a)gmail.com> wrote: > There is a gaping cavern of a hole in the p2p website. > > I was looking at: > > http://p2pfoundation.net/Field_Guide_to_the_Commons > > and it says libraries when we can no longer afford books - ??!!!! > > This seems to me a big misrepresentation - I can afford books, but I think > a library is essential as it reduces environmental impact on the planet, I > want the expert services of a librarian that can find stuff for me, communal > halls where I can meet fellow literati or researchers are valuable. Valuable > books that I can leave there and someone else manage the security or limited > editions I cannot find and can be stored collectively and better etc. many > COMMONS aspects that have nowt to do with money or some kind of seeking > alternative from a presumed mainstream culture. > > Also I think there should be an actual page on this as the LIBRARY is > probably the most familiar commons to people, which is a construct of man > that works well. > > Now maybe there is another page that has this? I don't know. But to develop > more on the library it would be good to ask "Vesa Lehtinen" <akuleh(a)sci.fi> > a qualified librarian here who worked at the Pispala Community Library here > in Pispala. Not sure if you met him? Anyhow this is a library that is open > to all, and not run through taxation, but one set up by the community here. > > markus > -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

3 3

best article on internal egyptian dynamics so far
by Michel Bauwens 06 Feb '11

06 Feb '11

http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/516/why-mubarak-is-out -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

1 0

Fwd: February CC Magazine
by Michel Bauwens 06 Feb '11

06 Feb '11

http://ccmag.net Your submissions are invited. Please circulate if you think it's valuable Matthew -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

1 0

Fwd: New Currency Now Available on Kindle
by Michel Bauwens 06 Feb '11

06 Feb '11

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jordan MacLeod <jordanbmacleod(a)yahoo.com> Date: Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 7:56 AM Subject: New Currency Now Available on Kindle To: info(a)newcurrency.org Dear All, Just a quick note to let you know that New Currency is now available on Kindle! Simply click here<http://www.amazon.com/New-Currency-Money-changes-ebook/dp/B004LX0FAW/ref=tm…>to check it out. Could you help me out by forwarding this news to any friends or colleagues who might find the book useful to help make sense of our our global financial transformation? I've attached a synopsis of the book and reviews below for those hearing about it for the first time. I've also been busy mapping out book two of the New Currency trilogy, Onement, and will be working intensely on its completion over the next couple of months. If you have any questions or comments that you would like to see addressed, please write soon! Best wishes, Jordan NEW CURRENCY is a pioneering study of money's untapped power to change the world. In the midst of a devastating global financial crisis, out of control government spending and grave problems such as terrorism, energy security and climate change, people all over the planet are waking up to the need for profound shifts in the way we think about and respond to these challenges. This book provides a powerful, fresh context for effectively confronting our global crisis head on. MacLeod demonstrates how a new currency can be integrated into the heart of our financial system to build a more creative, sustainable and inclusive version of capitalism. "By changing how we hold money," says MacLeod, "we literally hold in our hands the power to change the world." In this groundbreaking work, you will be introduced to an evolutionary perspective of money that accounts for its deep, subjective nature. MacLeod shows how an understanding of these dynamics can help us increasingly place economic activity in the service of qualitative growth and human development. He lays out a grounded vision, based on new economic tools, for redesigning the global economy to satisfy not only material needs but also align individuals and societies with their yearning to actualize their deepest values and purpose in the world. “MacLeod is offering a whole new paradigm that will bring light into the dark corners of how we exchange values on our precious planet and evolve an organic currency equal to the task.” -Marilyn Hamilton PhD CGA, Author of Integral City “I fully recommend readers to follow in Mr. MacLeod’s footsteps, for the journey is nothing short of groundbreaking.” -Alexandre Linhares, PhD, Professor of Management Science, The Brazilian School of Business and Public Administration “As each of our institutions begins to collapse under the weight of materialistic values, a new generation of creative minds emerges offering us alternatives that serve the common good. MacLeod is one of the promising pioneers of a new planetary civilization that takes an in-depth look at the interdependence of our global challenges and offers us innovative ideas for a monetary system that works for all.” -Nancy Roof, PhD, Founding Editor, Kosmos Journal “Jordan MacLeod has done an excellent job seeking to understand what new currency might mean in this new age following the collapse of the high finance system. This book will stimulate thought and, hopefully, open up new vistas for further exploration into the new role of currency in the future.” -Don Edward Beck, PhD, Co-Author of Spiral Dynamics “This couldn’t be more timely. It is a brilliant look at a new approach to thinking about currency from a visionary thinker ... When people realize the evolving impact of consciousness and cultural values on money, it will truly transform the world.” -James Bernard Quilligan, Adviser to HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal “This vital analysis helps us to examine how all humans have designed and used money throughout history. Using psychological and systems analyses from many sources, MacLeod shows how money is a reflection of human states of consciousness-from the purely materialistic to the transcendent.” -Hazel Henderson, Author of Ethical Markets: Growing the Green Economy (From the Foreword) Click here<http://www.amazon.com/New-Currency-Money-Changes-World/dp/0615276121/ref=sr…>to purchase the book on Amazon! -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

1 0