March 2011 - P2P-Foundation - lists.ourproject.org

- Re: "The currency is not the debt"
by Dante-Gabryell Monson 02 Mar '11

02 Mar '11

as for the euro zone, it seems that article 123 of the Lisbon treaty ( follower of 104 of Maastricht treaty ) seems , if I remember and understand properly, to forbid the European Central Bank to directly buy bonds from european states. ( although it did end up doing so lately in the case of Greece ? ) Hence the european central bank only sells its currency ( created out of thin air ? ) to commercial banks ? And european states become dependent on "control" by "the global financial market" to buy their Bonds - as approach to borrow money ? Hence european states at the mercy of the financial markets ? ( and potential speculation ) In both US Dollar and Eurozone currency , I feel there are a number of questions regarding who really has influence on the system, to who it is accountable, and if there is any ( democratic ? ) Sovereignty left ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson < dante.monson(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Roberto, > > thanks for your reply. > it makes me thinking. > > I ask myself, what is > *"the interest-free currency issued > by governments or their central banks"* > that you mention at the end of your message. > > What is this government interest free currency in the current ( central > bank dollar ) system ? > Is it government bonds ? if so, does the government not buy bonds back by > paying interest ? > > Also, are it "their" central banks, or are central banks ( in europe and > the US ) non-governmental institutions ( controlled by / accountable to ... > ... ? ) > In the states, it seems to be "semi-private" ( which apparently means "not > owned" by the US government - answer I find after googling it ) > > I do have the feeling that it may have been the case in the past, when the > Treasury had control on creating / feeding money into the system through > public spending ( without interest ? ), and then taking it out through taxes > ? "Greenbacks" / "Demand Notes" - for history, see : > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Note > > Yet, in the case of the US central bank dollar, > it seems to be backed by Treasury Bonds, when the Fed buys bonds with money > it creates out of thin air, using tax payers money to guarantee its own > monetary creation ? > And requiring commercial banks to have a certain percentage of this type of > money as guarantee for the credit they issue ? > > On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 5:36 AM, Roberto Verzola <rverzola(a)gn.apc.org>wrote: > >> I'm trying to understand what Chris Cook is saying below... >> >> There are at least two meanings of credit in finance: credit as debt, >> and credit as in debit/credit, left/right columns in accounting. >> >> He seems to mean the former, except that he asserts that a credit >> instrument is not debt, so apparently not. >> >> If he means the second, accounting people always say that debit/credit >> don't mean anything except left/right, which doesn't make sense in the >> context below. >> >> Would he mean some other thing then? >> >> He seems to distinguish between the "interest-free currency" created by >> the banks (meaning, I suppose, that the banks do not pay any interest >> for this currency) and the debt created when this currency is loaned out >> (for which the banks *earn* interest. At one point, he says banks "spend >> these interest-free currentcy into existence". I could be wrong, but I >> understand it differently: >> >> Banks *cannot* spend the debt-money they create, as far as I know. The >> currency they create has no independent existence *except* as a loan to >> borrowers, and the banks can only spend the interest earnings from these >> loans. So creation occurs *only* at the instant the interest-bearing >> debt is created. As soon as the principal is paid, the currency created >> from it is extinguished. Its interest earnings go to the bank; that's >> what they can spend. >> >> This makes debt-money different from the interest-free currency issued >> by governments or their central banks, which have independent existence >> outside a debt relationship. >> >> At least that's how I understand it. I'd be glad to be clarified about >> this. >> >> Roberto >> >> Dante-Gabryell Monson wrote: >> > This message from Chris Cook is interesting to me... >> > >> > It initially makes me feel there are "different vectors", >> > used as tools, >> > which may have accounting equivalents, >> > and can spark confusion as to what is what ? >> > >> > excerpt : >> > >> > /*" The currency is not the debt, but a credit instrument identical to >> > those issued by government. "*/ >> > >> > plus ci dessous... >> > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> > From: *Chris* >> > Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 3:05 PM >> > Subject: [gang8] ....of Public Credit >> > To: gang8(a)yahoogroups.com <mailto:[email protected]> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Dear Gang >> > >> > I made the following response to someone in a forum on 'Public >> > Banking' who was repeating the fallacy that money is debt. >> > >> > It covers quite a bit of ground, actually, and I'd be interested to >> > see if the Gang can pick holes in it >> > >> > Best Regards >> > >> > Chris Cook >> > >> > >> >> > I'm afraid you share a fundamental misconception in relation to the >> > money created by banks, which is in fact a credit instrument, not a >> > debt instrument. >> > >> > When private banks create credit they create a virtual IOU as an >> > accounting object. This interest-free IOU is a 'look-alike' of the >> > interest-free IOU issued by Central Banks, and is routinely exchanged >> > for such notes and coin in private hands when they are 'deposited' in >> > the banks. It is currency created as an object or thing to which >> > account owners have title. >> > >> > When a private bank lends this currency into existence it is creating >> > BOTH the currency AND the interest-bearing loan relationship with the >> > borrower under a debt contract. The currency is not the debt, but a >> > credit instrument identical to those issued by government. >> > >> > The debt is created in exchange for the use over time of the currency. >> > When a private bank spends currency into existence it creates virtual >> > credit instruments, and 'deposits' these into the accounts of >> > suppliers, staff, management or shareholders by crediting them with an >> > entitlement to these virtual assets. >> > >> > These credit instruments/IOUs are accepted by governments in payment >> > of taxes, and that is what gives them their value. There is >> > functionally no difference between an invoice issued by a private >> > business for private services rendered, and a tax demand issued for >> > government services rendered. >> > >> > Likewise, the issue by government of an undated IOU redeemable against >> > taxes is functionally equivalent to the issue by a private business of >> > an undated IOU redeemable against goods and services. eg Air Miles, >> > Store Loyalty points, or the well known DeliDollars. >> > >> > Government IOUs differ from private ones in that they are made >> > universally acceptable against debts by 'legal tender' laws aka by >> > government fiat. >> > >> > So in a nutshell, governments do not create debt when they 'print >> > money' and spend it. Government IOUs are in fact credit instruments >> > analogous to a form of undated non interest-bearing redeemable >> > preference share. >> > >> > Of course, these credit instruments must be issued and spent sensibly, >> > and not in relation to existing assets, where they will cause >> > inflation as the private banks demonstrated by creating the property >> > bubble. >> > >> > In my view public credit need not be inflationary if used to >> > facilitate the circulation of goods and services and the creation of >> > new productive assets, such as affordable housing; renewable energy >> > and energy saving projects; infrastructure such as transport, schools >> > and hospitals, and of course on training and education of the >> > population to enable them to create these assets. >> > >> > Such public credit creation should be professionally managed by >> > service providers with a stake in the outcome, and accountably >> > overseen by a Monetary Authority (as in Hong Kong, where there is no >> > Central Bank). Once productive assets are created with public credit, >> > they may then be refinanced by private investment in long term credit >> > based upon their productive value (eg rental flows and energy flows). >> > >> > In this way pension investment will enable the public credit used to >> > create new assets to be retired and recycled. Likewise, the newly >> > productive workforce will pay taxes, which again will retire and >> > recycle the public credit which made the workforce productive. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > __._,_.___ >> > Reply to sender >> > <mailto:[email protected] >> ?subject=Re%3A%20%2E%2E%2E%2Eof%20Public%20Credit%20> >> > | Reply to group >> > <mailto:[email protected] >> ?subject=Re%3A%20%2E%2E%2E%2Eof%20Public%20Credit%20> >> > | Reply via web post >> > < >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gang8/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNG1xa2JqBF9TAzk3MzU5N… >> > >> > | Start a New Topic >> > < >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gang8/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZmxpNDBlBF9TAzk3MzU5N… >> > >> > >> > Messages in this topic >> > < >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gang8/message/15603;_ylc=X3oDMTM2MnNoY2QxBF9T… >> > >> > (1) >> > Recent Activity: >> > >> > Visit Your Group >> > < >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gang8;_ylc=X3oDMTJldTRwN25hBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BG… >> > >> > >> > The gang8 list is devoted to Creditary Economics. >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups >> > < >> http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdW11ZGVoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyM… >> > >> > >> > Switch to: Text-Only >> > <mailto:[email protected] >> ?subject=Change+Delivery+Format:+Traditional>, >> > Daily Digest >> > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email+Delivery:+Digest> • >> > Unsubscribe >> > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe> • Terms >> > of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> >> > . >> > >> > __,_._,___ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> > http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> > >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> > >

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"The currency is not the debt"
by Dante-Gabryell Monson 02 Mar '11

02 Mar '11

This message from Chris Cook is interesting to me... It initially makes me feel there are "different vectors", used as tools, which may have accounting equivalents, and can spark confusion as to what is what ? excerpt : *" The currency is not the debt, but a credit instrument identical to those issued by government. "* plus ci dessous... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Chris Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 3:05 PM Subject: [gang8] ....of Public Credit To: gang8(a)yahoogroups.com Dear Gang I made the following response to someone in a forum on 'Public Banking' who was repeating the fallacy that money is debt. It covers quite a bit of ground, actually, and I'd be interested to see if the Gang can pick holes in it Best Regards Chris Cook >> I'm afraid you share a fundamental misconception in relation to the money created by banks, which is in fact a credit instrument, not a debt instrument. When private banks create credit they create a virtual IOU as an accounting object. This interest-free IOU is a 'look-alike' of the interest-free IOU issued by Central Banks, and is routinely exchanged for such notes and coin in private hands when they are 'deposited' in the banks. It is currency created as an object or thing to which account owners have title. When a private bank lends this currency into existence it is creating BOTH the currency AND the interest-bearing loan relationship with the borrower under a debt contract. The currency is not the debt, but a credit instrument identical to those issued by government. The debt is created in exchange for the use over time of the currency. When a private bank spends currency into existence it creates virtual credit instruments, and 'deposits' these into the accounts of suppliers, staff, management or shareholders by crediting them with an entitlement to these virtual assets. These credit instruments/IOUs are accepted by governments in payment of taxes, and that is what gives them their value. There is functionally no difference between an invoice issued by a private business for private services rendered, and a tax demand issued for government services rendered. Likewise, the issue by government of an undated IOU redeemable against taxes is functionally equivalent to the issue by a private business of an undated IOU redeemable against goods and services. eg Air Miles, Store Loyalty points, or the well known DeliDollars. Government IOUs differ from private ones in that they are made universally acceptable against debts by 'legal tender' laws aka by government fiat. So in a nutshell, governments do not create debt when they 'print money' and spend it. Government IOUs are in fact credit instruments analogous to a form of undated non interest-bearing redeemable preference share. Of course, these credit instruments must be issued and spent sensibly, and not in relation to existing assets, where they will cause inflation as the private banks demonstrated by creating the property bubble. In my view public credit need not be inflationary if used to facilitate the circulation of goods and services and the creation of new productive assets, such as affordable housing; renewable energy and energy saving projects; infrastructure such as transport, schools and hospitals, and of course on training and education of the population to enable them to create these assets. Such public credit creation should be professionally managed by service providers with a stake in the outcome, and accountably overseen by a Monetary Authority (as in Hong Kong, where there is no Central Bank). Once productive assets are created with public credit, they may then be refinanced by private investment in long term credit based upon their productive value (eg rental flows and energy flows). In this way pension investment will enable the public credit used to create new assets to be retired and recycled. Likewise, the newly productive workforce will pay taxes, which again will retire and recycle the public credit which made the workforce productive. >> __._,_.___ Reply to sender<cojock(a)hotmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20%2E%2E%2E%2Eof%20Public%20Credit%20>| Reply to group<[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20%2E%2E%2E%2Eof%20Public%20Credit%20>| Reply via web post<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gang8/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNG1xa2JqBF9TAzk3MzU5N…>| Start a New Topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gang8/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZmxpNDBlBF9TAzk3MzU5N…> Messages in this topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gang8/message/15603;_ylc=X3oDMTM2MnNoY2QxBF9T…>( 1) Recent Activity: Visit Your Group<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gang8;_ylc=X3oDMTJldTRwN25hBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BG…> The gang8 list is devoted to Creditary Economics. [image: Yahoo! Groups]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdW11ZGVoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyM…> Switch to: Text-Only<[email protected]?subject=Change+Delivery+Format:+Traditional>, Daily Digest <[email protected]?subject=Email+Delivery:+Digest> • Unsubscribe <gang8-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> • Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . __,_._,___

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Re: [P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the Institutional Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek, Now Can They Overthrow Robert Michels?
by Michel Bauwens 02 Mar '11

02 Mar '11

This is really brilliant Michael and I warmly recommend it to our listmembers, Michel On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Michel, > > I think this is one that you will find interesting... > > M > > --------------------------------------------- > http://wp.me/pJQl5-5Z > > "In this, I think that the revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia have access to > skills and resources which were unavailable to earlier movements that > is-the > Internet, social networking, mobile telephony and perhaps most important, > the experience and knowledge of how to use these in support of collective > social ends." > > -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

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five invitations to use scoop it curation
by Michel Bauwens 01 Mar '11

01 Mar '11

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Scoop.it <contact(a)scoop.it> Date: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 1:50 AM Subject: Thanks for being a top user of Scoop.it, invite people to join us! To: michelsub2004(a)gmail.com Dear Michel, You became a Scoop.it top user in a very short time: congrats, we’re really impressed! In the name of the entire Scoop.it team, we wanted to thank you for the quality of what you created on Scoop.it. Seeing topics like yours make us really happy we started it. As a way to say thank you and also because we believe it's important to grow while preserving the current spirit of Scoop.it, we're pleased to grant you 5 invites to Scoop.it. Hand them over through the following link: http://www.scoop.it/subscribe?token=MichelBauwens. It's valid for the first 5 persons to use it. And of course, don't hesitate to send us feedback, ideas or critics on Scoop.it. Once again a big thank you! Helene for The Scoop.it Team -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

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Fwd: [goodrelations] ANN: http://www.productontology.org - more than 300, 000 specific OWL DL classes for types of objects
by Michel Bauwens 01 Mar '11

01 Mar '11

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson(a)gmail.com> Date: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 5:59 AM Subject: Fwd: [goodrelations] ANN: http://www.productontology.org - more than 300, 000 specific OWL DL classes for types of objects To: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004(a)gmail.com>, Samuel Rose < samuel.rose(a)gmail.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [goodrelations] ANN: http://www.productontology.org - more than 300, 000 specific OWL DL classes for types of objects Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 19:13:30 +0100 From: Martin Hepp <martin.hepp(a)ebusiness-unibw.org> <martin.hepp(a)ebusiness-unibw.org> To: goodrelations <goodrelations(a)ebusiness-unibw.org><goodrelations(a)ebusiness-unibw.org> Dear all: We are happy to release http://www.productontology.org, an online-service that provides valid OWL DL class definitions for all of the ca. 300,000 types of products or services that are contained in the 3.5 million Wikipedia entries. In short, www.productontology.org provides for the schema level what DBpedia provides for the data / instance level of the Semantic Web. A few examples: Laser_printer http://www.productontology.org/id/Laser_printer Manure_spreader http://www.productontology.org/id/Manure_spreader Racing_bicycle http://www.productontology.org/id/Racing_bicycle Soldering_iron http://www.productontology.org/id/Soldering_iron Sweet_potato http://www.productontology.org/id/Sweet_potato The Product Ontology is designed to be compatible with the GoodRelations Ontology for e-commerce, but it can be used for any other Semantic Web or Linked Data purpose that requires class definitions for objects. All Wikipedia translations are preserved. Background informations and FAQs: http://www.productontology.org/#faq Examples in RDF/XML, Turtle, and RDFa: http://www.productontology.org/#examples Any feedback is highly appreciated! Acknowledgments: Thanks to Axel Polleres, Andreas Radinger, Alex Stolz, and Giovanni Tummarello for very valuable feedback. The work on The Product Types Ontology has been supported by the German Federal Ministry of Research (BMBF) by a grant under the KMU Innovativ program as part of the Intelligent Match project (FKZ 01IS10022B). -------------------------------------------------------- martin hepp e-business & web science research group universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen e-mail: hepp(a)ebusiness-unibw.org phone: +49-(0)89-6004-4217 fax: +49-(0)89-6004-4620 www: http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group) http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal) skype: mfhepp twitter: mfhepp _______________________________________________ goodrelations mailing [email protected]://ebusiness-unibw.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/goodrelations -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

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Re: [P2P-F] what we are doing from hirvitalo
by Michel Bauwens 01 Mar '11

01 Mar '11

thanks Mark On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 5:55 AM, Mark Petz <ravenwyn(a)gmail.com> wrote: > http://hirvikatu10.net/forest2point0/?p=444 > On Thursday there will be a premiere of our machinima, a first part of our documentary about the culture of wild berry picking and the problems related to the exploitation of Thai migrant labor in finnish forests. The machinima, now named *Lost in Globalisation* will be shown in* Saltburn Community Theatre<http://www.saltburnarts.co.uk/displayEventFullDetails.php?eventSelect=1514&…> * in a screening event starting at 7pm. -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

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Fwd: [Commoning] COP 16 in 2 minutes - must see on how a multi-stakeholder-dialogue works :-(
by Michel Bauwens 01 Mar '11

01 Mar '11

hilarious ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Silke Helfrich <Silke.Helfrich(a)gmx.de> Date: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 4:21 AM Subject: [Commoning] COP 16 in 2 minutes - must see on how a multi-stakeholder-dialogue works :-( To: Commoning <commoning(a)lists.wissensallmende.de> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76BgKe1naFc all the best Silke _______________________________________________ Commoning mailing list Commoning(a)lists.wissensallmende.de http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

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Fwd: Nominate your favorite projects!
by Michel Bauwens 01 Mar '11

01 Mar '11

Dear friends, on the prompting of franco, and asked by one of the organizers, I will nominate ourselves in the digital communities category, but if you could recommend us, in the manner indicated below, that would really help, winning such an award would make a difference for us, Michel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Prix Ars Electronica <info(a)prixars.aec.at> Date: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 4:14 PM Subject: Nominate your favorite projects! To: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004(a)gmail.com> [Click here if the mail fails to display properly]<http://mlwrx.com/sys/wv.aspx?sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA> ARS ELECTRONICA [image: px_2] *Prix Ars Electronica 2011* For the 25th time, Prix Ars Electronica<http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA&lnk=47U17>, one of the foremost international prizes for computer-based art, calls for entries in the categories Computer Animation/Film/VFX, Interactive Art, Hybrid Art, Digital Communities, Digital Musics & Sound Art, [the next idea] voestalpine Art and Technology Grant, and u19 – freestyle computing, Austrian’s largest youth computer competition. Help us to identify projects, which in your opinion should participate in the competition and nominate such projects via our website<http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA&lnk=2W4KI>or via Twitter <http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA&lnk=BZ7K2>. Online Submission Deadline: *March 18, 2011* If you want any further information or need support, please contact: info(a)prixars.aec.at <http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA&lnk=4G3S2> Feel free to forward this information. We’d be happy if you help us to "spread the word" in your community! Looking forward to your nominations! Your Prix Ars Electroncia 2011 Team Forward <http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sl=G7C6S&sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA> Change data <http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sl=FTTBA&sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA> Unsubscribe <http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sl=INZQU&sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA> Change data<http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sl=FTTBA&sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA>- Unsubscribe <http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sl=INZQU&sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA> - Contact Impressum: Ars Electronica Linz GmbH | Ars-Electronica-Straße 1 | A-4040 Linz Tel. +43.732.7272.79 | Fax +43.732.7272.674 | E-Mail: info(a)prixars.aec.at<http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA&lnk=4JHH6>| Web: prixars.aec.at <http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA&lnk=VPI0R> This mail was created with mailworx<http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=UIYSQ_8B8NA&sl=W1SE9> ®. -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

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Re: [P2P-F] kick-off
by Michel Bauwens 01 Mar '11

01 Mar '11

Hi Jonathan, in order to join our discussion you can either join our p2p-foundation mailing list, here at http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation or participate through Ning at http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/p2p-and-marxism-launching-the? starting base is jean's essay here just below: On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:28 PM, Jean Lievens <jean.lievens(a)base.be> wrote: > Hi Michel, > > I published a modified version of my comments on the triarchy article on my > p2p page > http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/blogs/p2p-and-marxism-in-search-of > > However, I do not know who is involved in this discussion and who is not. > The mails I get from you contain often different people, and Jonathan does > not seem to be included. > > Can you forward it to your contacts, including me and Jonathan Clyne? < > bretorp(a)telia.com> > > Thanks & warmest greetings > > Jean > > > -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

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Re: [P2P-F] The Libre Web Application Stack
by Michel Bauwens 01 Mar '11

01 Mar '11

thanks paul! On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Paul B. Hartzog <paulbhartzog(a)gmail.com>wrote: > posted, tweeted... > > Network Robustness and the Next Net > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/network-robustness-and-the-next-net/2011/03/01 > #nextnet #networks > > -p > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Paul B. Hartzog <paulbhartzog(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Michel, Colin, etc. > > > > Sure, I'll put some more detail about this up online (with references). > > In a nutshell, scale-free networks are robust to random failures, > > but vulnerable to targeted attacks because you can simply > > take out the hubs first and isolate most of the network parts > > from the other parts. > > > > -p > > > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 8:53 AM, Colin H <hawkett(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Paul - agree with the sentiment about diversity of routes (and > probably > >> protocols) being more robust, but I was wondering if you could elaborate > on > >> this statement > >> Network topologies robust to random failures are NOT robust to targeted > >> attacks. > >> Network topologies robust to targeted attacks are NOT robust to random > >> failures. > >> > >> I'm imagining a mesh network using a single routing method/topology > (e.g. > >> like the system devin highlighted). This architecture does not preclude > >> multiple routes (in fact in a network with a lot of nodes, there should > be > >> multiple routes). This would seem to be an architecture robust to random > >> failures, but I'm not sure why that architecture would make it any less > >> robust to targeted attack than our current internet - in fact it is > probably > >> more robust (from a failure/attack perspective). I figure I'm looking at > it > >> from a different perspective though :) > >> Cheers, > >> Colin > >> On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Paul B. Hartzog < > paulbhartzog(a)gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Michel Bauwens < > michelsub2004(a)gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > Dear Paul, > >>> > > >>> > it would be useful, if, for example you were going through the list, > to > >>> > identify the more 'core' solutions, perhaps through a star system or > >>> > some > >>> > such, > >>> > >>> will try to get a start on that. I'm only online 2 hrs / day until I > >>> get back home > >>> from Salt Lake City (i.e. Friday will be back to normal) > >>> > >>> > an important question for me is: what is really possible, given a > >>> > society > >>> > dominated by hostile forces? we may not get all we want, and > therefore > >>> > should perhaps focus on leverage points that give the greatest return > >>> > for a > >>> > realistic investment of available forces .. > >>> > >>> > >>> Yes, you have hit on a key point which needs to be discussed / > navigated. > >>> > >>> Basically this: > >>> Network topologies robust to random failures are NOT robust to targeted > >>> attacks. > >>> Network topologies robust to targeted attacks are NOT robust to random > >>> failures. > >>> > >>> The solution of course is to move beyond a singular topology to a > plural > >>> one. > >>> > >>> In other words, > >>> Imagine a dual-network with TWO routing methods and TWO topologies , > >>> and requests are sent in parallel along both networks, > >>> so that if nodes are down in one network, data is routed via the other. > >>> > >>> TWO is a minimum, though. > >>> > >>> The pluralization of networks goes back to the pluralization of > politics > >>> taken up by Connolly in his work The Ethos of Pluralization > >>> ( http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/C/connolly_ethos.html ) > >>> > >>> It is another example of why code people should know theory, > >>> and theory people should learn code. Cross-domain knowledges. > >>> > >>> -p > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > Michel > >>> > > >>> > On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Paul B. Hartzog > >>> > <paulbhartzog(a)gmail.com> > >>> > wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Yes, I was reviewing that page today from Salt Lake City in fact and > >>> >> there are good categories there. > >>> >> > >>> >> From a "lets build it" perspective though > >>> >> I am going to suggest another page with the same ingredients > >>> >> but displayed differently > >>> >> > >>> >> As we identify and bring in various projects > >>> >> it is crucial to list them according to what layer they address. > >>> >> (you can see the layers of OSI here > >>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model ) > >>> >> > >>> >> It's probably not necessary to display entirely based > >>> >> on the full OSI stack, > >>> >> but we at least should probably separate atoms from bits, > >>> >> i.e. > >>> >> projects that address distributed hardware > >>> >> projects that address distributed software > >>> >> > >>> >> technically, running distributed hardware requires > >>> >> software on those nodes anyway, > >>> >> but hopefully you see the point. > >>> >> > >>> >> Most of the projects I've seen are simply > >>> >> software that has some p2p-ish aspect. > >>> >> Slapping that onto a network with ISP's and a backbone, > >>> >> and an oligopoly of router equipment > >>> >> isn't going to solve either provisioning/bandwidth or governance > >>> >> issues. > >>> >> > >>> >> We need to support interest in both hardware and software > >>> >> solutions in order to really build a new p2p net. > >>> >> > >>> >> (my 23 cents ;-) > >>> >> > >>> >> -p > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 9:19 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose(a)gmail.com > > > >>> >> wrote: > >>> >> > Michel, > >>> >> > > >>> >> > We'll definitely do that. I think we'll tie it in with the > >>> >> > distillation of dialogues over the next few weeks, so that the > >>> >> > categorization attempts to reflect what is coming out of these > >>> >> > discussions we are starting. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > So far, your categorizations are definitely good basic > descriptions, > >>> >> > Michel. Thanks very much for putting this page together. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:14 PM, Michel Bauwens > >>> >> > <michelsub2004(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>> >> >> Dear Sam, > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> and others, > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> I have tried to categorize projects 'by sector', to the best of > my > >>> >> >> ability, > >>> >> >> but I'd be happy if someone can go throug the main list, and add > new > >>> >> >> subsectors for those I was not able to place easily, > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> both general list and sectoral one are below, > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> source: http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:P2P_Infrastructure > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> Projects to decentralize/distribute the internet: > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> Appleseed [2] - distributed social network > >>> >> >> Bitcoin, a decentralized internet currency. > >>> >> >> Diaspora will hopefully be a social networking community where > users > >>> >> >> can run > >>> >> >> their own federated “pods”, thus owning their personal data and > >>> >> >> directly > >>> >> >> controlling what is shared with who. > >>> >> >> The Dot-P2P Project, an alternative DNS hierarchy that resists > >>> >> >> censorship. > >>> >> >> The Freedom Box initiated by Eben Moglen and the Freedom Box > >>> >> >> Foundation: > >>> >> >> independent plug-in server > >>> >> >> GNUnet is a framework for secure peer-to-peer networking that > does > >>> >> >> not > >>> >> >> use > >>> >> >> any centralized or otherwise trusted services > >>> >> >> GNU Social [3] > >>> >> >> LittleShoot is a new web-based p2p file sharing site founded by > one > >>> >> >> of > >>> >> >> the > >>> >> >> creators of LimeWire that could live up to its pedigree > >>> >> >> Lorea [4] - distributed social networks, already running on 10 > >>> >> >> networks > >>> >> >> One Social Web [5] - distributed social network using xmpp > >>> >> >> One Swarm [6]- F2F (friend2friend) P2P sharing; a new > peer-to-peer > >>> >> >> tool > >>> >> >> that > >>> >> >> provides users with explicit control over their privacy by > letting > >>> >> >> them > >>> >> >> determine how data is shared > >>> >> >> Open BTS: working on a new kind of cellular network that can be > >>> >> >> installed > >>> >> >> and operated at about 1/10 the cost of current technologies, but > >>> >> >> that > >>> >> >> will > >>> >> >> still be compatible with most of the handsets that are already in > >>> >> >> the > >>> >> >> market. > >>> >> >> Open Media Vault [7] > >>> >> >> Open Moko, A project to create a 'free' or open source Open > Mobile > >>> >> >> Telephony > >>> >> >> platform. > >>> >> >> Open PGP encryption is based on self-issued certificates which > gain > >>> >> >> authority as a result of a web of trust expressed via user- > >>> >> >> maintained > >>> >> >> keyrings rather than a hierarchical certificate authority system > >>> >> >> that > >>> >> >> can be > >>> >> >> centrally compromised. > >>> >> >> Open Storage Pod, [8] open hardware project, small cubes to store > >>> >> >> terabytes > >>> >> >> Open WRT [9]- GNU/Linux based free firmware for gateways and > >>> >> >> routers. > >>> >> >> Own Cloud, data storage project from the wider KDE community > >>> >> >> Retro Share [10] - secure communications with friends > >>> >> >> Seeks Project [11] - "social websearch" > >>> >> >> Sovereign Computing Group [12] - similar project to Freedom Box, > >>> >> >> with a > >>> >> >> very > >>> >> >> interesting Manifesto. > >>> >> >> Sparkle Share, [13] open source 'dropbox' replacement > >>> >> >> Status.Net is a microblogging system that allows users to run > their > >>> >> >> own > >>> >> >> Twitter-like site and federate selected streams with other > systems. > >>> >> >> The Tahoe Least-Authority File System, a highly fault-tolerant, > >>> >> >> secure > >>> >> >> internet filesystem. > >>> >> >> The Tor Project, an anonymizing overlay network. > >>> >> >> Unhosted: "Unhosted is a project for strengthening free software > >>> >> >> against > >>> >> >> hosted software. With our protocol, a website is only source > code. > >>> >> >> Dynamic > >>> >> >> data is encrypted and decentralised, to per-user storage nodes. > This > >>> >> >> benefits free software, as well as scalability, robustness, and > >>> >> >> online > >>> >> >> privacy." > >>> >> >> YaCy is a search engine where many nodes share information to > build > >>> >> >> a > >>> >> >> distributed index. > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> [edit] Distributed Technologies by Sector > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> [edit] P2P Currencies > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> Bitcoin, a decentralized internet currency. > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> [edit] P2P Filesharing and Storage > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> LittleShoot is a new web-based p2p file sharing site founded by > one > >>> >> >> of > >>> >> >> the > >>> >> >> creators of LimeWire that could live up to its pedigree > >>> >> >> Open Storage Pod, [14] open hardware project, small cubes to > store > >>> >> >> terabytes > >>> >> >> Own Cloud, data storage project from the wider KDE community > >>> >> >> The Tahoe Least-Authority File System, a highly fault-tolerant, > >>> >> >> secure > >>> >> >> internet filesystem. > >>> >> >> Unhosted: "Unhosted is a project for strengthening free software > >>> >> >> against > >>> >> >> hosted software. With our protocol, a website is only source > code. > >>> >> >> Dynamic > >>> >> >> data is encrypted and decentralised, to per-user storage nodes. > This > >>> >> >> benefits free software, as well as scalability, robustness, and > >>> >> >> online > >>> >> >> privacy." > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> [edit] P2P Hardware > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> The Freedom Box initiated by Eben Moglen and the Freedom Box > >>> >> >> Foundation: > >>> >> >> independent plug-in server > >>> >> >> Sovereign Computing Group [15] - similar project to Freedom Box, > >>> >> >> with a > >>> >> >> very > >>> >> >> interesting Manifesto. > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> [edit] P2P Network Computing > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> For the most fully distributed Peer to Peer Computer Networks at > >>> >> >> present, > >>> >> >> please check out Tribler ;Peerple ; Wipeer > >>> >> >> Research into more fully distributed P2P systems for the future: > >>> >> >> Chord, > >>> >> >> CX > >>> >> >> Project, Farsite, Globe Project, Oceanstore, Pastry > >>> >> >> Decentralized P2P software programs are monitored and indexed > here; > >>> >> >> Flud > >>> >> >> maintains a list of Distributed Internet-based Backup Systemssuch > as > >>> >> >> Tahoe > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> [edit] P2P Social Networks > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> Appleseed [16] - distributed social network > >>> >> >> Diaspora will hopefully be a social networking community where > users > >>> >> >> can run > >>> >> >> their own federated “pods”, thus owning their personal data and > >>> >> >> directly > >>> >> >> controlling what is shared with who. > >>> >> >> GNUnet is a framework for secure peer-to-peer networking that > does > >>> >> >> not > >>> >> >> use > >>> >> >> any centralized or otherwise trusted services > >>> >> >> GNU Social [17] > >>> >> >> Lorea [18] - distributed social networks, already running on 10 > >>> >> >> networks > >>> >> >> One Social Web [19] - distributed social network using xmpp > >>> >> >> One Swarm [20]- F2F (friend2friend) P2P sharing; a new > peer-to-peer > >>> >> >> tool > >>> >> >> that provides users with explicit control over their privacy by > >>> >> >> letting > >>> >> >> them > >>> >> >> determine how data is shared > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> [edit] P2P Searching > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> List of Distributed Search Engines; [21] > >>> >> >> Seeks Project [22] - "social websearch" > >>> >> >> YaCy is a search engine where many nodes share information to > build > >>> >> >> a > >>> >> >> distributed index. > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> [edit] Virtual Worlds > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> Peer to Peer Virtual Worlds: VastPark, Solipsis, Vast; see also: > >>> >> >> Multiverse > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Venessa Miemis > >>> >> >> <venessamiemis(a)gmail.com> > >>> >> >> wrote: > >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >>> just wondering your impression of this post, in terms of the > 'what > >>> >> >>> we > >>> >> >>> need' conversation - > >>> >> >>> The Libre Web Application Stack > >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> -- > >>> >> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > >>> >> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > >>> >> >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > >>> >> >> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > >>> >> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/ > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > -- > >>> >> > -- > >>> >> > Sam Rose > >>> >> > Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation > >>> >> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 > >>> >> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 > >>> >> > skype: samuelrose > >>> >> > email: samuel.rose(a)gmail.com > >>> >> > http://forwardfound.org > >>> >> > http://futureforwardinstitute.org > >>> >> > http://hollymeadcapital.com > >>> >> > http://p2pfoundation.net > >>> >> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com > >>> >> > > >>> >> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human > >>> >> > ambition." - Carl Sagan > >>> >> > > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> -- > >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> >> The Forward Foundation > >>> >> http://www.ForwardFound.org > >>> >> paul.b.hartzog(a)forwardfound.org > >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> >> http://www.PaulBHartzog.org > >>> >> PaulBHartzog(a)PaulBHartzog.org > >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> >> http://www.panarchy.com > >>> >> PaulBHartzog(a)panarchy.com > >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> >> University of Michigan > >>> >> PHartzog(a)umich.edu > >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> >> The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms. > >>> >> --Muriel Rukeyser > >>> >> > >>> >> Perceive differently, then you will act differently. > >>> >> --Paul B. Hartzog > >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > >>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > >>> > > >>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > >>> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >>> > > >>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens > ; > >>> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > >>> > > >>> > Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/ > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> The Forward Foundation > >>> http://www.ForwardFound.org > >>> paul.b.hartzog(a)forwardfound.org > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> http://www.PaulBHartzog.org > >>> PaulBHartzog(a)PaulBHartzog.org > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> http://www.panarchy.com > >>> PaulBHartzog(a)panarchy.com > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> University of Michigan > >>> PHartzog(a)umich.edu > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms. > >>> --Muriel Rukeyser > >>> > >>> Perceive differently, then you will act differently. > >>> --Paul B. Hartzog > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > The Forward Foundation > > http://www.ForwardFound.org > > paul.b.hartzog(a)forwardfound.org > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org > > PaulBHartzog(a)PaulBHartzog.org > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.panarchy.com > > PaulBHartzog(a)panarchy.com > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > University of Michigan > > PHartzog(a)umich.edu > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms. > > --Muriel Rukeyser > > > > Perceive differently, then you will act differently. > > --Paul B. Hartzog > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------- > The Forward Foundation > http://www.ForwardFound.org > paul.b.hartzog(a)forwardfound.org > -------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org > PaulBHartzog(a)PaulBHartzog.org > -------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.panarchy.com > PaulBHartzog(a)panarchy.com > -------------------------------------------------------- > University of Michigan > PHartzog(a)umich.edu > -------------------------------------------------------- > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms. > --Muriel Rukeyser > > Perceive differently, then you will act differently. > --Paul B. Hartzog > -------------------------------------------------------- > -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

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