va cc para Rafael Bonifaz To: [email protected] From: Alexandre Oliva <[email protected]> Organization: Free thinker, not speaking for FSF Latin America Subject: [Team] “peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs? X-BeenThere: [email protected] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: <team.fsfla.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/team> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> The Caracas Declaration brought about some significant amount of noise from our usual friends in Argentina and elsewhere. Hipatia's Juan Carlos Gentile didn't miss a beat before attacking us, SOLAR's Martín Olivera disputed our legitimacy, misunderstood and questioned the misunderstood suggestion of setting aside long-past historical differences, and SOLAR's Diego Saravia insisted on the agreement that he wanted us to sign with SOLAR long ago. http://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/solar-general/2009-July/050104.html http://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/solar-general/2009-July/050109.html http://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/solar-general/2009-July/050126.html My first reaction to the thought of the agreement with SOLAR was the same as then: what's in it for us, what would the point be? But then I started pondering that RMS has managed quite a feat in his upcoming visit to Argentina, getting both groups to play along sort-of together, I thought we might use this very opportunity to establish a truce in Argentina. Say, rather than an agreement with SOLAR, we could suggest a multi-party agreement, with both SOLAR and Vía Libre in Argentina, FSFLA and other FSFes that got involved in the mess, and maybe even Hipatia. The agreement might be as simple as a commitment to mutual respect and recognition for each others' relevance, and some wording about encouraging, supporting and maybe even cooperating in activities that promote software freedom. If such an agreement comes about, it might cancel out much of the resistance that FSFLA encounters in Argentina and Uruguay, and the scenario may be further opened for cooperation between organizations that have failed to cooperate because of personal issues between some of their leaders, and we accomplish that remaining neutral rather than taking sides. If any of the organizations steps back, well, too bad, but it's not us who rejected an honest attempt at cooperation for our shared goals. Thoughts? -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter http://FSFLA.org/~lxoliva/ You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Gandhi Be Free! -- http://FSFLA.org/ FSF Latin America board member Free Software Evangelist Red Hat Brazil Compiler Engineer _______________________________________________ Team mailing list [email protected] http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team X-Account-Key: account2 X-Mozilla-Keys: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ututo.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.134 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.134 tagged_above=-100 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.535, BAYES_00=-2.599] From: Richard Stallman <[email protected]> To: Alexandre Oliva <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Team] “peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs? X-BeenThere: [email protected] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Reply-To: [email protected] List-Id: <team.fsfla.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/team> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> Say, rather than an agreement with SOLAR, we could suggest a multi-party agreement, with both SOLAR and Vía Libre in Argentina, FSFLA and other FSFes that got involved in the mess, and maybe even Hipatia. The agreement might be as simple as a commitment to mutual respect and recognition for each others' relevance, and some wording about encouraging, supporting and maybe even cooperating in activities that promote software freedom. It seems like a good idea to try. But I suggest trying first for just SOLAR and FSF-LA. Trying to convince SOLAR and Via Libre to bury the hatchet may be too difficult. When Spanish is written in anger, it tends to leave gaps which normal speakers can fill in, but I can't. I expect I would find it very difficult to read and understand their postings. So I don't plan to try to read it on my own. What grounds did they give for their attack? Are there any specific points they made that I should know about in order to understand the situation? Please do consider their points to see if any is partly valid and might suggest an improvement for FSF-LA. _______________________________________________ Team mailing list [email protected] http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team X-Account-Key: account2 X-Mozilla-Keys: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ututo.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-100 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599] To: [email protected] From: Alexandre Oliva <[email protected]> Organization: Free thinker, not speaking for FSF Latin America Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Team] “peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs? X-BeenThere: [email protected] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: <team.fsfla.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/team> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> On Jul 29, 2009, Richard Stallman <[email protected]> wrote:

What grounds did they give for their attack?

Historical artifacts of the way FSFLA was established. Alleged discussions and dissentions about creating an FSF in the region, and how it should be arranged, that predate by years my involvement with FSFLA. Legacy of members long left, guilt by association, and closed structure. Lots of distrust, focus on the issue of your canceled speeches for Madres de la Plaza de Mayo, accusations that all we do is publish uninvited announcements.

Please do consider their points to see if any is partly valid and might suggest an improvement for FSF-LA.

Most of all, I think we need to do a better job communicating what we do, so that it becomes more obvious that we are not quite as dead as they might wish we were ;-) They're right that our structure is not as open as an association that anyone can join and vote, but that's as it should be. At least I don't see any way around it. They assume continuity which I personally dispute. How can we be held responsible and be required to make up for things that were done before we existed, before any of the current members joined the organization? Even more so when all the records of “FSF de los Pampas” were erased, and we effectively started from scratch in December 2006. -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter http://FSFLA.org/~lxoliva/ You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Gandhi Be Free! -- http://FSFLA.org/ FSF Latin America board member Free Software Evangelist Red Hat Brazil Compiler Engineer _______________________________________________ Team mailing list [email protected] http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team X-Account-Key: account2 X-Mozilla-Keys: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ututo.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.13 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.13 tagged_above=-100 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.531, BAYES_00=-2.599] From: Richard Stallman <[email protected]> To: Alexandre Oliva <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Team] “peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs? X-BeenThere: [email protected] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Reply-To: [email protected] List-Id: <team.fsfla.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/team> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> They assume continuity which I personally dispute. How can we be held responsible and be required to make up for things that were done before we existed, before any of the current members joined the organization? Even more so when all the records of FSF de los Pampas were erased, and we effectively started from scratch in December 2006. Perhaps they do not realize that FSF LA effectively started from scratch in December 2006. _______________________________________________ Team mailing list [email protected] http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team X-Account-Key: account2 X-Mozilla-Keys: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ututo.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.628 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.628 tagged_above=-100 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599] To: [email protected] From: Alexandre Oliva <[email protected]> Organization: Free thinker, not speaking for FSF Latin America Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Team] “peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs? X-BeenThere: [email protected] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: <team.fsfla.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/team> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> On Jul 30, 2009, Richard Stallman <[email protected]> wrote:

They assume continuity which I personally dispute. How can we be held responsible and be required to make up for things that were done before we existed, before any of the current members joined the organization? Even more so when all the records of FSF de los Pampas were erased, and we effectively started from scratch in December 2006.

Perhaps they do not realize that FSF LA effectively started from scratch in December 2006.

Indeed. They explicitly reject this notion, claiming we inherited all the history associated with the name, and therefore we're responsible for making up to them for whatever other groups that used the same name, and did to them, even before they created the organization with that name. It seems very insane to me, but they seem quite set on that line of reasoning. It seems like they want so badly for someone to pay back to them that they can't let it go of us :-( Under this light, it was certainly a mistake to try to have some appearance of continuity. But I'm not sure that announcing we were starting from scratch, leaving behind even the public web site and past annoucements and writings, would have been enough to clear up their obsession. The name FSFLA itself is cursed, they say ;-( -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter http://FSFLA.org/~lxoliva/ You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Gandhi Be Free! -- http://FSFLA.org/ FSF Latin America board member Free Software Evangelist Red Hat Brazil Compiler Engineer _______________________________________________ Team mailing list [email protected] http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team X-Account-Key: account2 X-Mozilla-Keys: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ututo.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.126 tagged_above=-100 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.527, BAYES_00=-2.599] From: Richard Stallman <[email protected]> To: Alexandre Oliva <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Team] “peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs? X-BeenThere: [email protected] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Reply-To: [email protected] List-Id: <team.fsfla.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/team> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> It seems very insane to me, but they seem quite set on that line of reasoning. It seems like they want so badly for someone to pay back to them that they can't let it go of us :-( Under this light, it was certainly a mistake to try to have some appearance of continuity. But I'm not sure that announcing we were starting from scratch, leaving behind even the public web site and past annoucements and writings, would have been enough to clear up their obsession. The name FSFLA itself is cursed, they say ;-( Don't worry about it. Indeed. They explicitly reject this notion, claiming we inherited all the history associated with the name, and therefore we're responsible for making up to them for whatever other groups that used the same name, and did to them, even before they created the organization with that name. If they said this in a public message, it should be easy to show that it not valid criticism. But it is better just to ignore them unless a lot of others start paying attention. _______________________________________________ Team mailing list [email protected] http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team X-Account-Key: account2 X-Mozilla-Keys: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ututo.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.541 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.541 tagged_above=-100 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599] From: Quiliro Ordóñez <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Team] “peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs? X-BeenThere: [email protected] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: <team.fsfla.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/team> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> 2009/7/30 Richard Stallman <[email protected]>:

   It seems very insane to me, but they seem quite set on that line of    reasoning.  It seems like they want so badly for someone to pay back to    them that they can't let it go of us :-(

   Under this light, it was certainly a mistake to try to have some    appearance of continuity.  But I'm not sure that announcing we were    starting from scratch, leaving behind even the public web site and past    annoucements and writings, would have been enough to clear up their    obsession.  The name FSFLA itself is cursed, they say ;-(

Don't worry about it.

   Indeed.  They explicitly reject this notion, claiming we inherited all    the history associated with the name, and therefore we're responsible    for making up to them for whatever other groups that used the same name,    and did to them, even before they created the organization with that    name.

If they said this in a public message, it should be easy to show that it not valid criticism.

But it is better just to ignore them unless a lot of others start paying attention.

I agree but we should make a final public anouncement portaying our position showing a good disposition for agreement and taking into account their concerns. -- Saludos/Greetings Quiliro Ordóñez 593(02)340 1517 / 593(09)821 8696 http://quiliro.wordpress.com "Sólo cuando el último árbol esté muerto, el último río envenenado, y el último pez atrapado, nos daremos cuenta que no se puede comer dinero" _______________________________________________ Team mailing list [email protected] http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team X-Account-Key: account2 X-Mozilla-Keys: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ututo.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-100 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] From: Beatriz Busaniche <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Organization: Fundación Vía Libre Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Team] “peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs? X-BeenThere: [email protected] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Reply-To: [email protected] List-Id: <team.fsfla.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/team> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> El mié, 29-07-2009 a las 16:14 -0400, Richard Stallman escribió:

Trying to convince SOLAR and Via Libre to bury the hatchet may be too difficult.

Actually, Vía Libre has unilaterally buried the hatchet years ago. SoLAr, on the other hand, continues to publicly slander Vía Libre and its members (with special emphasis on Fede and me) every chance they get. And if they don't get a chance, they make one up, as it has just happened. So you don't need to worry about Vía Libre: we have a long track record of not responding to aggression, no matter how uncalled for. We just prefer to keep our distance from that particular group, because we've been burned way too often. My personal experience tells me that it is useless to attempt to have a rational dialogue with SoLAr, but maybe FSFLA must learn from its own experience. Bea _______________________________________________ Team mailing list [email protected] http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/team ----- End forwarded message -----