[P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] The class structure of the "solidarity economy" or any alternative community

Sun Aug 14 08:05:46 CEST 2016

I would be very interested to hear more about these three different
experiences.
The personal is political!

On Aug 14, 2016 6:58 AM, "Michel Bauwens" <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:

> I have experienced this dichotomy 'in the flesh' by rearing my 2nd set of
> children in thailand's original attachment parenting style, and my first
> two in the european 'new age re-invention of attachment parenting' style
> ... in reaction to my own nearly opposite experience <g>
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Yes I didn't mean to imply a dichotomy between west and others, just that
>> west child rearing culture is only one I'm familiar with.
>>
>> On Aug 14, 2016 4:41 AM, "Michel Bauwens" <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Anna,
>>>
>>> are you familiar with the works of Wilhelm Reich at all .. some
>>> interesting hypotheses in his work which echo what you are saying
>>>
>>> and are you familiar with the Institute for Psycho-History ?
>>>
>>> Their history of child abuse is amazing, but also interesting because it
>>> breaks down the dichotomy between, the west is bad and based on domination
>>> vs the rest where all is good,
>>>
>>> see http://www.primal-page.com/psyhis.htm
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 2:12 AM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I find this discussion very interesting, though haven't had time yet to
>>>> respond.
>>>>
>>>> "I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of
>>>> your experiences."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The traits you are describing run deeper than class, though they do
>>>> have something to do with how we judge some classes better than others. So
>>>> eg working class is more honest, more down to earth, more on the same
>>>> level, upper class more arrogant, more rigid, more bigoted. But we also
>>>> know these are caricatures, and easily reversed in practice.
>>>>
>>>> I think what is here being described has to do with 'morality',
>>>> something we rarely talk about because it borders on religion. Peer to peer
>>>> attracts us because it is nearer to 'all of us being equal in the eyes of
>>>> God'. This has nothing to do with a belief in God, but something to do with
>>>> what Peter describes as "a dialectical and holistic disposition toward
>>>> global social emancipation".
>>>>
>>>> This also connects with Orsan's concern that people who appear to be
>>>> 'on our side' are being used/funded by people with different intentions.
>>>>
>>>> I've recently been reading neurobiologist Darcia Narvaez book
>>>> 'Neurobiology and the Development of Morality'. https://www.goodrea
>>>> ds.com/book/show/18378036-neurobiology-and-the-development-o
>>>> f-human-morality
>>>>
>>>> What is clear from her research is that if a baby's needs are not met,
>>>> eg if it is left to cry itself to sleep, which is a common practice in many
>>>> western cultures, it is imprinted with the experience of a hostile world,
>>>> which can affect its development and produce mental problems such as
>>>> anxiety and depression later in life. The importance of the parent child
>>>> bond in mitigating such experiences, and the resources that a baby brings
>>>> with it, inherited and its own personality, all blend to produce a person's
>>>> identity, which as you say, may be changed with difficulty.
>>>>
>>>> There is a growing movement which sees the necessity of welcoming the
>>>> newborn with positive experiences, to counteract what appears to be the
>>>> 'natural' tendency towards aggression and insecurity in our culture.
>>>> Narvaez makes it clear that this needs to be a community effort, it cannot
>>>> be done alone.
>>>>
>>>> See the 20 presenters at the upcoming conference at Findhorn, Healthy
>>>> Birth, Healthy Earth.  https://hbhe.co/presenters/
>>>>
>>>> Anna
>>>>
>>>> On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:44, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:51 AM, peter waterman
>>>> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Are these classes a cause of their behaviour or a result thereof?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At least related, I think.
>>>>
>>>> And, in
>>>>
>>>> any case, are these 'classes' or 'identities'? I mean in any
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> definition of classes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, it's more complicated. If you believe in intersectionality in
>>>> the bell hooks sense (and I do) and in relationships of domination vs
>>>> relationships of partnership as described recently in this list (and I
>>>> do), then in the capitalist system you got polarities of domination
>>>> and subordination around gender, wealth and relations of production,
>>>> and culture/race.
>>>>
>>>> People's individual personalities are formed in some interacting
>>>> combination of whichever positions in the two or three of those poles
>>>> they were enculturated in.
>>>>
>>>> And it gets even more complicated than that.
>>>>
>>>> I'm just trying to account for some phenomena in some way that is
>>>> discussable without writing a book.
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, what DO you do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://mikorizal.org
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I would either belong to or become a member
>>>>
>>>> of the preferred class.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not pointing fingers.
>>>>
>>>> I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of
>>>> your experiences. You can consciously change some of them through
>>>> struggle from and social practice with your comrades, but it ain't
>>>> easy.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:44 AM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm trying to connect to what I think I perceive in some of Orsan's
>>>>
>>>> posts. This is a different angle on what Orsan has been talking about,
>>>>
>>>> but I think it is connected and I think the subject line might be
>>>>
>>>> closer to the essence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We have recent experience with very different groups that we have
>>>>
>>>> worked with in our "solidarity economy" software experiments. None of
>>>>
>>>> which shall be named. Yet.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some people in some groups have this sense of entitlement, as if we
>>>>
>>>> are their employees or they are our customer, rather than us all being
>>>>
>>>> peers in an open source project.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They complain a lot. Occasionally they offer helpful suggestions, but
>>>>
>>>> mostly they like to complain. Sometimes when they do make suggestions,
>>>>
>>>> they are way beyond anything that could be implemented, and if
>>>>
>>>> implemented, they would not be able to use the results because the
>>>>
>>>> results would be beyond their competence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They are arrogant. They assume they our intellectual superiors. They
>>>>
>>>> claim to have abilities that in subsequent events they fail miserably
>>>>
>>>> to demonstrate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We meet other groups where people claim to want to collaborate but
>>>>
>>>> fail to do so. Often they are credentialed academics, and we are not.
>>>>
>>>> (I don't even have a college degree. The horror!) They want to publish
>>>>
>>>> papers in proprietary journals which will advance their careers. We
>>>>
>>>> are not helpful in that pursuit. They also assume they are our
>>>>
>>>> intellectual superiors.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We work with other groups who do not feel so entitled. Who are eager
>>>>
>>>> to collaborate. Who jump in and work on the software. Who not only
>>>>
>>>> suggest improvements to the software, they jump in and make the
>>>>
>>>> improvements themselves! What a concept! Like a real open source
>>>>
>>>> project!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is so nice. Really.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think we have class differences at work here. What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>>>>
>>>> NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
>>>>
>>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Click here for Peter's recent writings
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>> http://commonstransition.org
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
> http://commonstransition.org
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>
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