[P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] The class structure of the "solidarity economy" or any alternative community

Sun Aug 14 08:08:48 CEST 2016

for when we meet offline again <g>

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:

> I would be very interested to hear more about these three different
> experiences.
> The personal is political!
>
> On Aug 14, 2016 6:58 AM, "Michel Bauwens" <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
> wrote:
>
>> I have experienced this dichotomy 'in the flesh' by rearing my 2nd set of
>> children in thailand's original attachment parenting style, and my first
>> two in the european 'new age re-invention of attachment parenting' style
>> ... in reaction to my own nearly opposite experience <g>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes I didn't mean to imply a dichotomy between west and others, just
>>> that west child rearing culture is only one I'm familiar with.
>>>
>>> On Aug 14, 2016 4:41 AM, "Michel Bauwens" <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Anna,
>>>>
>>>> are you familiar with the works of Wilhelm Reich at all .. some
>>>> interesting hypotheses in his work which echo what you are saying
>>>>
>>>> and are you familiar with the Institute for Psycho-History ?
>>>>
>>>> Their history of child abuse is amazing, but also interesting because
>>>> it breaks down the dichotomy between, the west is bad and based on
>>>> domination vs the rest where all is good,
>>>>
>>>> see http://www.primal-page.com/psyhis.htm
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 2:12 AM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I find this discussion very interesting, though haven't had time yet
>>>>> to respond.
>>>>>
>>>>> "I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of
>>>>> your experiences."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The traits you are describing run deeper than class, though they do
>>>>> have something to do with how we judge some classes better than others. So
>>>>> eg working class is more honest, more down to earth, more on the same
>>>>> level, upper class more arrogant, more rigid, more bigoted. But we also
>>>>> know these are caricatures, and easily reversed in practice.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think what is here being described has to do with 'morality',
>>>>> something we rarely talk about because it borders on religion. Peer to peer
>>>>> attracts us because it is nearer to 'all of us being equal in the eyes of
>>>>> God'. This has nothing to do with a belief in God, but something to do with
>>>>> what Peter describes as "a dialectical and holistic disposition
>>>>> toward global social emancipation".
>>>>>
>>>>> This also connects with Orsan's concern that people who appear to be
>>>>> 'on our side' are being used/funded by people with different intentions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've recently been reading neurobiologist Darcia Narvaez book
>>>>> 'Neurobiology and the Development of Morality'. https://www.goodrea
>>>>> ds.com/book/show/18378036-neurobiology-and-the-development-o
>>>>> f-human-morality
>>>>>
>>>>> What is clear from her research is that if a baby's needs are not met,
>>>>> eg if it is left to cry itself to sleep, which is a common practice in many
>>>>> western cultures, it is imprinted with the experience of a hostile world,
>>>>> which can affect its development and produce mental problems such as
>>>>> anxiety and depression later in life. The importance of the parent child
>>>>> bond in mitigating such experiences, and the resources that a baby brings
>>>>> with it, inherited and its own personality, all blend to produce a person's
>>>>> identity, which as you say, may be changed with difficulty.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a growing movement which sees the necessity of welcoming the
>>>>> newborn with positive experiences, to counteract what appears to be the
>>>>> 'natural' tendency towards aggression and insecurity in our culture.
>>>>> Narvaez makes it clear that this needs to be a community effort, it cannot
>>>>> be done alone.
>>>>>
>>>>> See the 20 presenters at the upcoming conference at Findhorn, Healthy
>>>>> Birth, Healthy Earth.  https://hbhe.co/presenters/
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:44, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:51 AM, peter waterman
>>>>> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Are these classes a cause of their behaviour or a result thereof?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At least related, I think.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, in
>>>>>
>>>>> any case, are these 'classes' or 'identities'? I mean in any
>>>>> conventional
>>>>>
>>>>> definition of classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, it's more complicated. If you believe in intersectionality in
>>>>> the bell hooks sense (and I do) and in relationships of domination vs
>>>>> relationships of partnership as described recently in this list (and I
>>>>> do), then in the capitalist system you got polarities of domination
>>>>> and subordination around gender, wealth and relations of production,
>>>>> and culture/race.
>>>>>
>>>>> People's individual personalities are formed in some interacting
>>>>> combination of whichever positions in the two or three of those poles
>>>>> they were enculturated in.
>>>>>
>>>>> And it gets even more complicated than that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just trying to account for some phenomena in some way that is
>>>>> discussable without writing a book.
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly, what DO you do?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://mikorizal.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I would either belong to or become a member
>>>>>
>>>>> of the preferred class.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not pointing fingers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of
>>>>> your experiences. You can consciously change some of them through
>>>>> struggle from and social practice with your comrades, but it ain't
>>>>> easy.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:44 AM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm trying to connect to what I think I perceive in some of Orsan's
>>>>>
>>>>> posts. This is a different angle on what Orsan has been talking about,
>>>>>
>>>>> but I think it is connected and I think the subject line might be
>>>>>
>>>>> closer to the essence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We have recent experience with very different groups that we have
>>>>>
>>>>> worked with in our "solidarity economy" software experiments. None of
>>>>>
>>>>> which shall be named. Yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some people in some groups have this sense of entitlement, as if we
>>>>>
>>>>> are their employees or they are our customer, rather than us all being
>>>>>
>>>>> peers in an open source project.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They complain a lot. Occasionally they offer helpful suggestions, but
>>>>>
>>>>> mostly they like to complain. Sometimes when they do make suggestions,
>>>>>
>>>>> they are way beyond anything that could be implemented, and if
>>>>>
>>>>> implemented, they would not be able to use the results because the
>>>>>
>>>>> results would be beyond their competence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They are arrogant. They assume they our intellectual superiors. They
>>>>>
>>>>> claim to have abilities that in subsequent events they fail miserably
>>>>>
>>>>> to demonstrate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We meet other groups where people claim to want to collaborate but
>>>>>
>>>>> fail to do so. Often they are credentialed academics, and we are not.
>>>>>
>>>>> (I don't even have a college degree. The horror!) They want to publish
>>>>>
>>>>> papers in proprietary journals which will advance their careers. We
>>>>>
>>>>> are not helpful in that pursuit. They also assume they are our
>>>>>
>>>>> intellectual superiors.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We work with other groups who do not feel so entitled. Who are eager
>>>>>
>>>>> to collaborate. Who jump in and work on the software. Who not only
>>>>>
>>>>> suggest improvements to the software, they jump in and make the
>>>>>
>>>>> improvements themselves! What a concept! Like a real open source
>>>>>
>>>>> project!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is so nice. Really.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we have class differences at work here. What do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>> NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
>>>>>
>>>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Click here for Peter's recent writings
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>>>>> NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
>>>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>>>>> NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
>>>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>>> http://commonstransition.org
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>> http://commonstransition.org
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>
>

-- 
Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
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