<p dir="ltr">I would be very interested to hear more about these three different experiences. <br>
The personal is political!</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 14, 2016 6:58 AM, "Michel Bauwens" <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">I have experienced this dichotomy 'in the flesh' by rearing my 2nd set of children in thailand's original attachment parenting style, and my first two in the european 'new age re-invention of attachment parenting' style ... in reaction to my own nearly opposite experience <g></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Anna Harris <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk" target="_blank">anna@shsh.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">Yes I didn't mean to imply a dichotomy between west and others, just that west child rearing culture is only one I'm familiar with.<br>
</p><div><div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 14, 2016 4:41 AM, "Michel Bauwens" <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Anna,<div><br></div><div>are you familiar with the works of Wilhelm Reich at all .. some interesting hypotheses in his work which echo what you are saying</div><div><br></div><div>and are you familiar with the Institute for Psycho-History ?</div><div><br></div><div>Their history of child abuse is amazing, but also interesting because it breaks down the dichotomy between, the west is bad and based on domination vs the rest where all is good,</div><div><br></div><div>see <a href="http://www.primal-page.com/psyhis.htm" target="_blank">http://www.primal-page.com<wbr>/psyhis.htm</a></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 2:12 AM, Anna Harris <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk" target="_blank">anna@shsh.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div></div><div>I find this discussion very interesting, though haven't had time yet to respond.</div><div><br></div><div><span><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">"I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of<br>your experiences."</span></font></blockquote><div><br></div></span>The traits you are describing run deeper than class, though they do have something to do with how we judge some classes better than others. So eg working class is more honest, more down to earth, more on the same level, upper class more arrogant, more rigid, more bigoted. But we also know these are caricatures, and easily reversed in practice.</div><div><br></div><div>I think what is here being described has to do with 'morality', something we rarely talk about because it borders on religion. Peer to peer attracts us because it is nearer to 'all of us being equal in the eyes of God'. This has nothing to do with a belief in God, but something to do with what Peter describes as "<span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">a dialectical and holistic disposition toward global social emancipation".</span></div><div><br></div><div>This also connects with Orsan's concern that people who appear to be 'on our side' are being used/funded by people with different intentions.<br><br></div><div>I've recently been reading neurobiologist Darcia Narvaez book 'Neurobiology and the Development of Morality'. <a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18378036-neurobiology-and-the-development-of-human-morality" target="_blank">https://www.goodrea<wbr>ds.com/book/show/18378036-neur<wbr>obiology-and-the-development-o<wbr>f-human-morality</a></div><div><br></div><div>What is clear from her research is that if a baby's needs are not met, eg if it is left to cry itself to sleep, which is a common practice in many western cultures, it is imprinted with the experience of a hostile world, which can affect its development and produce mental problems such as anxiety and depression later in life. The importance of the parent child bond in mitigating such experiences, and the resources that a baby brings with it, inherited and its own personality, all blend to produce a person's identity, which as you say, may be changed with difficulty. </div><div><br></div><div>There is a growing movement which sees the necessity of welcoming the newborn with positive experiences, to counteract what appears to be the 'natural' tendency towards aggression and insecurity in our culture. Narvaez makes it clear that this needs to be a community effort, it cannot be done alone.</div><div><br></div><div>See the 20 presenters at the upcoming conference at Findhorn, Healthy Birth, Healthy Earth.  <a href="https://hbhe.co/presenters/" target="_blank">https://hbhe.co/presenters/</a></div><span><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Anna</div></font></span><div><div><div><br>On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:44, Bob Haugen <<a href="mailto:bob.haugen@gmail.com" target="_blank">bob.haugen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:51 AM, peter waterman</span><br><span><<a href="mailto:peterwaterman1936@gmail.com" target="_blank">peterwaterman1936@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>Are these classes a cause of their behaviour or a result thereof?</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>At least related, I think.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>And, in</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>any case, are these 'classes' or 'identities'? I mean in any conventional</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>definition of classes.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Yeah, it's more complicated. If you believe in intersectionality in</span><br><span>the bell hooks sense (and I do) and in relationships of domination vs</span><br><span>relationships of partnership as described recently in this list (and I</span><br><span>do), then in the capitalist system you got polarities of domination</span><br><span>and subordination around gender, wealth and relations of production,</span><br><span>and culture/race.</span><br><span></span><br><span>People's individual personalities are formed in some interacting</span><br><span>combination of whichever positions in the two or three of those poles</span><br><span>they were enculturated in.</span><br><span></span><br><span>And it gets even more complicated than that.</span><br><span></span><br><span>I'm just trying to account for some phenomena in some way that is</span><br><span>discussable without writing a book.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>Secondly, what DO you do?</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span><a href="http://mikorizal.org" target="_blank">http://mikorizal.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>Maybe I would either belong to or become a member</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>of the preferred class.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>I'm not pointing fingers.</span><br><span></span><br><span>I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of</span><br><span>your experiences. You can consciously change some of them through</span><br><span>struggle from and social practice with your comrades, but it ain't</span><br><span>easy.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:44 AM, Bob Haugen <<a href="mailto:bob.haugen@gmail.com" target="_blank">bob.haugen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>I'm trying to connect to what I think I perceive in some of Orsan's</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>posts. This is a different angle on what Orsan has been talking about,</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>but I think it is connected and I think the subject line might be</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>closer to the essence.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>We have recent experience with very different groups that we have</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>worked with in our "solidarity economy" software experiments. None of</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>which shall be named. Yet.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Some people in some groups have this sense of entitlement, as if we</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>are their employees or they are our customer, rather than us all being</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>peers in an open source project.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>They complain a lot. Occasionally they offer helpful suggestions, but</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>mostly they like to complain. Sometimes when they do make suggestions,</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>they are way beyond anything that could be implemented, and if</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>implemented, they would not be able to use the results because the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>results would be beyond their competence.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>They are arrogant. They assume they our intellectual superiors. They</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>claim to have abilities that in subsequent events they fail miserably</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>to demonstrate.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>We meet other groups where people claim to want to collaborate but</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>fail to do so. Often they are credentialed academics, and we are not.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>(I don't even have a college degree. The horror!) They want to publish</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>papers in proprietary journals which will advance their careers. We</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>are not helpful in that pursuit. They also assume they are our</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>intellectual superiors.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>We work with other groups who do not feel so entitled. Who are eager</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>to collaborate. Who jump in and work on the software. Who not only</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>suggest improvements to the software, they jump in and make the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>improvements themselves! What a concept! Like a real open source</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>project!</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>It is so nice. Really.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>I think we have class differences at work here. What do you think?</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>NetworkedLabour mailing list</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="mailto:NetworkedLabour@lists.contrast.org" target="_blank">NetworkedLabour@lists.contrast<wbr>.org</a></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour" target="_blank">http://lists.contrast.org/mail<wbr>man/listinfo/networkedlabour</a></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>--</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Click here for Peter's recent writings</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>NetworkedLabour mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:NetworkedLabour@lists.contrast.org" target="_blank">NetworkedLabour@lists.contrast<wbr>.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour" target="_blank">http://lists.contrast.org/mail<wbr>man/listinfo/networkedlabour</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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