[P2P-F] Fwd: Citations for "value equation"

Thu Jan 15 18:11:43 CET 2015

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: Citations for "value equation"
To: Tiberius Brastaviceanu <tiberius.brastaviceanu at gmail.com>
Cc: Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>, Kurt Laitner <
klaitner at gmail.com>, Lynn Foster <foster.j.lynn at gmail.com>, Caroline
Stiegler <caroline.stiegler at gmail.com>, Bernard Stiegler <
bernard.stiegler at centrepompidou.fr>

The Value Equation tutorial is now public, as promised.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1h-t6p55KTK-zlXIH9gUG6TYiwj1ARk4dq0_Q9C5Wh80/edit?usp=sharing

Please let us know if you have any problems accessing it, or if you
have suggestions for improvement, or want to comment on the document
itself.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks a lot. I started a github wiki page, citing the referata wiki page:
> https://github.com/valnet/valuenetwork/wiki/Value-Equations
>
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu
> <tiberius.brastaviceanu at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I saved some info in the value equation OVN wiki page
>> http://valuenetwork.referata.com/wiki/The_Value_Equation#Background
>>
>> I also linked Lynn's document on value equation on this page, which is
>> itself linked on the main value equation page.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net
>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ok thanks!
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Give us until Jan 15 before (for example) publishing on P2PFoundation?
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime, feel free to share it with anybody who wants to join
the
>>>> conversation. It's public-on-the-web now, and if people want to
comment on
>>>> the document itself, we can give them permission. Maybe open up a copy
for
>>>> both commenting and editing, if people want to get deep into it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> when will this be shareable ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess we should have known that Kurt would appear in that
fascinating
>>>>>> origin story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So here's a question, which I hope will stimulate a longer
conversation
>>>>>> than an email thread, and may want to find another medium or two:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are close to having an actual value equation up and running. Just
>>>>>> starting to implement the actual distributions, but most of the
structure
>>>>>> and logic is in place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It probably differs from what any of the originators had in mind.
>>>>>> Partly because we don't yet have some of the components people had
in mind,
>>>>>> maybe because Tibi's ideas and/or the situation at Sensorica have
changed,
>>>>>> and certainly because we are trying to design it in a general enough
way to
>>>>>> handle all of the value equation ideas of the current groups that
want to
>>>>>> use it. (And also probably because of lacks of skill and
imagination...)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We will be documenting it in a lot of detail. Here's the first
>>>>>> installment, much more to come:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1h-t6p55KTK-zlXIH9gUG6TYiwj1ARk4dq0_Q9C5Wh80/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So we want to know what you all think about it. We think this is a
>>>>>> transformative idea (which is why we want the history to be part of
the
>>>>>> documentation), and it needs a lot of ongoing thought and
development (in
>>>>>> the sense of child development).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Kurt Laitner <klaitner at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks tibi for noticing :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have used "value equation" and "value networks" since the early
>>>>>>> 2000's in conversations about *net (after i forked the idea from my
>>>>>>> colleague's concept of 'powernet' who wanted to create a for-profit
platform
>>>>>>> to take percentages of each transaction). We call something similar
to *net
>>>>>>> "OVN's" (though the NRP concept is probably closer to *net than OVN
is as
>>>>>>> *net is a platform with parametrized algorithms based on value
accumulation
>>>>>>> in standardized value dimensions whose accumulations are determined
through
>>>>>>> integration with all intermediating communications tech).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am still not familiar with stiegler's work, though I have seen his
>>>>>>> name mentioned many times in my travels (and here he is again!).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My concept of value equations is a dimensional weighted sum of
'pure'
>>>>>>> measures of value (not 'subjective Value' or the fictitious
'objective
>>>>>>> Value', though these can be derived from pure value by inspection
and
>>>>>>> interpretation).  These dimensions are measures of activities that
increase
>>>>>>> the probability of value creation, not the post facto priced
exchange value
>>>>>>> of whatever is produced, not the subjective experience of value of
>>>>>>> participants.  Exchange is a special event that triggers
distribution of
>>>>>>> whatever exchange value is offered (which is either an abstract
value like
>>>>>>> money or something of subjective value to the recipient such as
reputation).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The term 'value accounting' came up in convos of the SENSORICA
mailing
>>>>>>> list. I am not sure who named it but i found it to resonate deeply
with the
>>>>>>> conception of *net as a way to track relative value contributed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much later Michel suggested 'contributory value accounting' as a
topic
>>>>>>> I should write about and I like that term very much as it describes
quite
>>>>>>> accurately the point of 'powernet' as it was conceived by myself
and my
>>>>>>> colleague Reg Cheramy in the late 90's. The motivation for my
sticking the
>>>>>>> wildcard symbol * in front instead of power is that any flow can be
>>>>>>> directed, not just power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The new focus on the governance aspect evolved with my experiences
>>>>>>> with SENSORICA and other value networks, who all ultimately hit
governance
>>>>>>> issues long before distribution of revenue questions.  The notion of
>>>>>>> decision making rights based on relative value contributed has
always been a
>>>>>>> part of powernet (the power part) but its importance and priority
over the
>>>>>>> revenue distribution piece has become clear over time and I coined
the term
>>>>>>> 'governance equation' to reflect the symmetry of this concept with
the
>>>>>>> 'value equation'.  The value equation is better framed as a
'distribution
>>>>>>> equation' for revenue (cash for now) as opposed to the governance
equation
>>>>>>> as a  distribution equation for voting rights.  One can see many
flavors of
>>>>>>> distribution equation to control various flows.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   I have never published formally and any ideas I have are a result
of
>>>>>>> my experiences in this world, and things I have read and of course
how they
>>>>>>> bounce off my unique existence.  When the frog hits the water there
is a
>>>>>>> splash.  There is no merit in it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have never published and never researched what was already known
in
>>>>>>> the subject area, and so I cannot complain when someone says the
wheel I
>>>>>>> invented "from scratch" turns out to be highly derivative (what a
shocker!).
>>>>>>> Indeed I don't even care.  The point is to get a working model of
OVN's, so
>>>>>>> we can all attribute better in the future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a matter of history though I can say that stiegler has had no
>>>>>>> direct influence on me (indirect..who knows?).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> /kdl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 27, 2014 12:51 PM, "Tiberius Brastaviceanu"
>>>>>>> <tiberius.brastaviceanu at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think it is accurate to say that Bernard Stiegler had a
>>>>>>>> direct influence on the development of SENSORICA. I personally
discovered
>>>>>>>> him perhaps a year ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The concepts and the language were developed in collaboration.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The precursor of the OVN model is the "Discovery Network" model
that
>>>>>>>> I proposed in September 2010. The term used was value exchange
system,
>>>>>>>> instead of value accounting system. At this moment, the concept of
value
>>>>>>>> equation was not formed. As you can see in the document, the
allocation of
>>>>>>>> equity was governed by a set of rules through a mechanism of
negotiation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The first document that described the OVN model is the Value System
>>>>>>>> document. It was first created in April 2011. The expression
valuation
>>>>>>>> mechanism was used to name of the section that mentioned a
mathematical
>>>>>>>> formula for calculating fluid equity. So the idea of a
mathematical formula,
>>>>>>>> an equation, was there from the beginning. For an entire year,
there were
>>>>>>>> discussions between myself, Steve, Kurt and Bayle about how to
calculate it.
>>>>>>>> See the attached screenshot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I introduced the expression "value accounting system" in this doc,
on
>>>>>>>> March 02, 2012.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On March 13, 2012 the expression "value equation" appears in the
doc
>>>>>>>> for the first time, in conjunction with a comment made by Kurt on
the
>>>>>>>> mailing list. The earliest occurrence of the expression "value
equation" in
>>>>>>>> SENSORICA's mailing list is in early September 2011, used by Kurt
again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kurt later proposed the concept of "governance equation".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is what I got doing my little investigation. Isn't it nice to
>>>>>>>> have history recorded?!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>>>>>> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Interesting to know indeed if Stiegler's work has been influential
>>>>>>>>> on the open value accounting idea
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you will have noticed it is mentioned in my annual review here,
>>>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Top_Ten_P2P_Trends_of_2014
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bernard: can you point us to english material on your work,
>>>>>>>>> especially on your concept of the 'revenu contributif', which I
would like
>>>>>>>>> to give more support in the coming year ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for info on those who missed it:
>>>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/What_the_P2P_Foundation_Did_in_2014
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com
>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Adding Michel to this message, because I want to broaden the
>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>> I think the value equation might have some roots in Bernard
>>>>>>>>>> Stiegler's
>>>>>>>>>> concept of the economy of contribution.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you all think this is accurate? Were Stiegler's ideas a direct
>>>>>>>>>> influence on Sensorica, or more like an idea in the air like a
>>>>>>>>>> wind-blown seed that falls on ready soil, or not in the picture?
Or
>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>> I missing something else, or misunderstanding completely?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 8:12 AM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com
>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> > I mean not only the name but also the idea.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > As far as I know, they both originated at Sensorica. Probably
>>>>>>>>>> > with
>>>>>>>>>> > you. Do you know different?
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > I'm adding some background to our value equation tutorial and
>>>>>>>>>> > incidental writings. So I guess the proper question is, how do
>>>>>>>>>> > you
>>>>>>>>>> > want to be cited?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>>>>>>>> http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> t!b!
>>>>>>>> co-founder of SENSORICA,
>>>>>>>> an open, decentralized and self-organizing
>>>>>>>> value network (an open enterprise)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> founder of Multitude Project
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Google Profile
>>>>>>>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu
>>>>>>>> Twitter  @TiberiusB
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>>>> http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
>>>>>
>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>
>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>> http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> t!b!
>> co-founder of SENSORICA,
>> an open, decentralized and self-organizing
>> value network (an open enterprise)
>>
>> founder of Multitude Project
>>
>> Google Profile
>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu
>> Twitter  @TiberiusB

-- 
Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
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