<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Bob Haugen</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bob.haugen@gmail.com">bob.haugen@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Date: Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:46 PM<br>Subject: Re: Citations for "value equation"<br>To: Tiberius Brastaviceanu <<a href="mailto:tiberius.brastaviceanu@gmail.com">tiberius.brastaviceanu@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc: Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>>, Kurt Laitner <<a href="mailto:klaitner@gmail.com">klaitner@gmail.com</a>>, Lynn Foster <<a href="mailto:foster.j.lynn@gmail.com">foster.j.lynn@gmail.com</a>>, Caroline Stiegler <<a href="mailto:caroline.stiegler@gmail.com">caroline.stiegler@gmail.com</a>>, Bernard Stiegler <<a href="mailto:bernard.stiegler@centrepompidou.fr">bernard.stiegler@centrepompidou.fr</a>><br><br><br>The Value Equation tutorial is now public, as promised.<br>
<br>
<a href="https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1h-t6p55KTK-zlXIH9gUG6TYiwj1ARk4dq0_Q9C5Wh80/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1h-t6p55KTK-zlXIH9gUG6TYiwj1ARk4dq0_Q9C5Wh80/edit?usp=sharing</a><br>
<br>
Please let us know if you have any problems accessing it, or if you<br>
have suggestions for improvement, or want to comment on the document<br>
itself.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Bob Haugen <<a href="mailto:bob.haugen@gmail.com">bob.haugen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Thanks a lot. I started a github wiki page, citing the referata wiki page:<br>
> <a href="https://github.com/valnet/valuenetwork/wiki/Value-Equations" target="_blank">https://github.com/valnet/valuenetwork/wiki/Value-Equations</a><br>
><br>
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu<br>
> <<a href="mailto:tiberius.brastaviceanu@gmail.com">tiberius.brastaviceanu@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> I saved some info in the value equation OVN wiki page<br>
>> <a href="http://valuenetwork.referata.com/wiki/The_Value_Equation#Background" target="_blank">http://valuenetwork.referata.com/wiki/The_Value_Equation#Background</a><br>
>><br>
>> I also linked Lynn's document on value equation on this page, which is<br>
>> itself linked on the main value equation page.<br>
>><br>
>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> ok thanks!<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Bob Haugen <<a href="mailto:bob.haugen@gmail.com">bob.haugen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Give us until Jan 15 before (for example) publishing on P2PFoundation?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> In the meantime, feel free to share it with anybody who wants to join the<br>
>>>> conversation. It's public-on-the-web now, and if people want to comment on<br>
>>>> the document itself, we can give them permission. Maybe open up a copy for<br>
>>>> both commenting and editing, if people want to get deep into it.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Michel Bauwens<br>
>>>> <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> when will this be shareable ?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Michel<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Bob Haugen <<a href="mailto:bob.haugen@gmail.com">bob.haugen@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I guess we should have known that Kurt would appear in that fascinating<br>
>>>>>> origin story.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> So here's a question, which I hope will stimulate a longer conversation<br>
>>>>>> than an email thread, and may want to find another medium or two:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> We are close to having an actual value equation up and running. Just<br>
>>>>>> starting to implement the actual distributions, but most of the structure<br>
>>>>>> and logic is in place.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> It probably differs from what any of the originators had in mind.<br>
>>>>>> Partly because we don't yet have some of the components people had in mind,<br>
>>>>>> maybe because Tibi's ideas and/or the situation at Sensorica have changed,<br>
>>>>>> and certainly because we are trying to design it in a general enough way to<br>
>>>>>> handle all of the value equation ideas of the current groups that want to<br>
>>>>>> use it. (And also probably because of lacks of skill and imagination...)<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> We will be documenting it in a lot of detail. Here's the first<br>
>>>>>> installment, much more to come:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> <a href="https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1h-t6p55KTK-zlXIH9gUG6TYiwj1ARk4dq0_Q9C5Wh80/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1h-t6p55KTK-zlXIH9gUG6TYiwj1ARk4dq0_Q9C5Wh80/edit?usp=sharing</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> So we want to know what you all think about it. We think this is a<br>
>>>>>> transformative idea (which is why we want the history to be part of the<br>
>>>>>> documentation), and it needs a lot of ongoing thought and development (in<br>
>>>>>> the sense of child development).<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Kurt Laitner <<a href="mailto:klaitner@gmail.com">klaitner@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Thanks tibi for noticing :-)<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I have used "value equation" and "value networks" since the early<br>
>>>>>>> 2000's in conversations about *net (after i forked the idea from my<br>
>>>>>>> colleague's concept of 'powernet' who wanted to create a for-profit platform<br>
>>>>>>> to take percentages of each transaction). We call something similar to *net<br>
>>>>>>> "OVN's" (though the NRP concept is probably closer to *net than OVN is as<br>
>>>>>>> *net is a platform with parametrized algorithms based on value accumulation<br>
>>>>>>> in standardized value dimensions whose accumulations are determined through<br>
>>>>>>> integration with all intermediating communications tech).<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I am still not familiar with stiegler's work, though I have seen his<br>
>>>>>>> name mentioned many times in my travels (and here he is again!).<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> My concept of value equations is a dimensional weighted sum of 'pure'<br>
>>>>>>> measures of value (not 'subjective Value' or the fictitious 'objective<br>
>>>>>>> Value', though these can be derived from pure value by inspection and<br>
>>>>>>> interpretation). These dimensions are measures of activities that increase<br>
>>>>>>> the probability of value creation, not the post facto priced exchange value<br>
>>>>>>> of whatever is produced, not the subjective experience of value of<br>
>>>>>>> participants. Exchange is a special event that triggers distribution of<br>
>>>>>>> whatever exchange value is offered (which is either an abstract value like<br>
>>>>>>> money or something of subjective value to the recipient such as reputation).<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> The term 'value accounting' came up in convos of the SENSORICA mailing<br>
>>>>>>> list. I am not sure who named it but i found it to resonate deeply with the<br>
>>>>>>> conception of *net as a way to track relative value contributed.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Much later Michel suggested 'contributory value accounting' as a topic<br>
>>>>>>> I should write about and I like that term very much as it describes quite<br>
>>>>>>> accurately the point of 'powernet' as it was conceived by myself and my<br>
>>>>>>> colleague Reg Cheramy in the late 90's. The motivation for my sticking the<br>
>>>>>>> wildcard symbol * in front instead of power is that any flow can be<br>
>>>>>>> directed, not just power.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> The new focus on the governance aspect evolved with my experiences<br>
>>>>>>> with SENSORICA and other value networks, who all ultimately hit governance<br>
>>>>>>> issues long before distribution of revenue questions. The notion of<br>
>>>>>>> decision making rights based on relative value contributed has always been a<br>
>>>>>>> part of powernet (the power part) but its importance and priority over the<br>
>>>>>>> revenue distribution piece has become clear over time and I coined the term<br>
>>>>>>> 'governance equation' to reflect the symmetry of this concept with the<br>
>>>>>>> 'value equation'. The value equation is better framed as a 'distribution<br>
>>>>>>> equation' for revenue (cash for now) as opposed to the governance equation<br>
>>>>>>> as a distribution equation for voting rights. One can see many flavors of<br>
>>>>>>> distribution equation to control various flows.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I have never published formally and any ideas I have are a result of<br>
>>>>>>> my experiences in this world, and things I have read and of course how they<br>
>>>>>>> bounce off my unique existence. When the frog hits the water there is a<br>
>>>>>>> splash. There is no merit in it.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I have never published and never researched what was already known in<br>
>>>>>>> the subject area, and so I cannot complain when someone says the wheel I<br>
>>>>>>> invented "from scratch" turns out to be highly derivative (what a shocker!).<br>
>>>>>>> Indeed I don't even care. The point is to get a working model of OVN's, so<br>
>>>>>>> we can all attribute better in the future.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> As a matter of history though I can say that stiegler has had no<br>
>>>>>>> direct influence on me (indirect..who knows?).<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> /kdl<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> On Dec 27, 2014 12:51 PM, "Tiberius Brastaviceanu"<br>
>>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:tiberius.brastaviceanu@gmail.com">tiberius.brastaviceanu@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> Hi Bob,<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> I don't think it is accurate to say that Bernard Stiegler had a<br>
>>>>>>>> direct influence on the development of SENSORICA. I personally discovered<br>
>>>>>>>> him perhaps a year ago.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> The concepts and the language were developed in collaboration.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> The precursor of the OVN model is the "Discovery Network" model that<br>
>>>>>>>> I proposed in September 2010. The term used was value exchange system,<br>
>>>>>>>> instead of value accounting system. At this moment, the concept of value<br>
>>>>>>>> equation was not formed. As you can see in the document, the allocation of<br>
>>>>>>>> equity was governed by a set of rules through a mechanism of negotiation.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> The first document that described the OVN model is the Value System<br>
>>>>>>>> document. It was first created in April 2011. The expression valuation<br>
>>>>>>>> mechanism was used to name of the section that mentioned a mathematical<br>
>>>>>>>> formula for calculating fluid equity. So the idea of a mathematical formula,<br>
>>>>>>>> an equation, was there from the beginning. For an entire year, there were<br>
>>>>>>>> discussions between myself, Steve, Kurt and Bayle about how to calculate it.<br>
>>>>>>>> See the attached screenshot.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> I introduced the expression "value accounting system" in this doc, on<br>
>>>>>>>> March 02, 2012.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> On March 13, 2012 the expression "value equation" appears in the doc<br>
>>>>>>>> for the first time, in conjunction with a comment made by Kurt on the<br>
>>>>>>>> mailing list. The earliest occurrence of the expression "value equation" in<br>
>>>>>>>> SENSORICA's mailing list is in early September 2011, used by Kurt again.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> Kurt later proposed the concept of "governance equation".<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> This is what I got doing my little investigation. Isn't it nice to<br>
>>>>>>>> have history recorded?!<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Michel Bauwens<br>
>>>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> Interesting to know indeed if Stiegler's work has been influential<br>
>>>>>>>>> on the open value accounting idea<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> you will have noticed it is mentioned in my annual review here,<br>
>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Top_Ten_P2P_Trends_of_2014" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Top_Ten_P2P_Trends_of_2014</a><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> Bernard: can you point us to english material on your work,<br>
>>>>>>>>> especially on your concept of the 'revenu contributif', which I would like<br>
>>>>>>>>> to give more support in the coming year ?<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> for info on those who missed it:<br>
>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/What_the_P2P_Foundation_Did_in_2014" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/What_the_P2P_Foundation_Did_in_2014</a><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> Michel<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Bob Haugen <<a href="mailto:bob.haugen@gmail.com">bob.haugen@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> Adding Michel to this message, because I want to broaden the<br>
>>>>>>>>>> question.<br>
>>>>>>>>>> I think the value equation might have some roots in Bernard<br>
>>>>>>>>>> Stiegler's<br>
>>>>>>>>>> concept of the economy of contribution.<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you all think this is accurate? Were Stiegler's ideas a direct<br>
>>>>>>>>>> influence on Sensorica, or more like an idea in the air like a<br>
>>>>>>>>>> wind-blown seed that falls on ready soil, or not in the picture? Or<br>
>>>>>>>>>> am<br>
>>>>>>>>>> I missing something else, or misunderstanding completely?<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 8:12 AM, Bob Haugen <<a href="mailto:bob.haugen@gmail.com">bob.haugen@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>>> > I mean not only the name but also the idea.<br>
>>>>>>>>>> ><br>
>>>>>>>>>> > As far as I know, they both originated at Sensorica. Probably<br>
>>>>>>>>>> > with<br>
>>>>>>>>>> > you. Do you know different?<br>
>>>>>>>>>> ><br>
>>>>>>>>>> > I'm adding some background to our value equation tutorial and<br>
>>>>>>>>>> > incidental writings. So I guess the proper question is, how do<br>
>>>>>>>>>> > you<br>
>>>>>>>>>> > want to be cited?<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:<br>
>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan" target="_blank">http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan</a><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> -<br>
>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> Updates: <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>;<br>
>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: <a href="http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/" target="_blank">http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/</a><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>>>> t!b!<br>
>>>>>>>> co-founder of SENSORICA,<br>
>>>>>>>> an open, decentralized and self-organizing<br>
>>>>>>>> value network (an open enterprise)<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> founder of Multitude Project<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> Google Profile<br>
>>>>>>>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu<br>
>>>>>>>> Twitter @TiberiusB<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> --<br>
>>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:<br>
>>>>> <a href="http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan" target="_blank">http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> -<br>
>>>>> <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Updates: <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: <a href="http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/" target="_blank">http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> --<br>
>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:<br>
>>> <a href="http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan" target="_blank">http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> Updates: <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: <a href="http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/" target="_blank">http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> t!b!<br>
>> co-founder of SENSORICA,<br>
>> an open, decentralized and self-organizing<br>
>> value network (an open enterprise)<br>
>><br>
>> founder of Multitude Project<br>
>><br>
>> Google Profile<br>
>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu<br>
>> Twitter @TiberiusB<br>
</div></div></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: <a href="http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan" target="_blank">http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan</a> </div><div><br></div>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br><br><a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank"></a>Updates: <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br><br>#82 on the (En)Rich list: <a href="http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/" target="_blank">http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/</a> <br></div></div>
</div>