[P2P-F] Germany has Hidden Debt??

Dante-Gabryell Monson dante.monson at gmail.com
Thu Sep 29 21:10:46 CEST 2011 

Thanks Tadit!

interesting comments and references you provide!

I did not know about
William Black
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_K._Black
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8CqaHTygSc

ps: I am not for the gold standard.
the site I gave was an easy reference to japan's debt or to the fed buying a
great deal of treasury securities, found via first google entries.

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 2:20 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:

> Dante,
>
> the website you provided the link to seems to be signed onto the gold
> standard concept which makes it probably libertarian in nature. It also is
> conflating fiat currencies as all fiat currencies, and does not identify
> privately issued currency versus sovereignty based issuance of currency.
> The US currency system is currently privately controlled. In a floating
> value currency exchange process, yes, currencies will both gain and lose
> value. That was also the case under a gold standard due to the private
> speculation and hoarding of gold  Given that the US Federal Reserve is
> essentially a trade association of private banking interests, it operates
> as a wealth extraction mechanism. If most of the wealth is extracted their
> owners will have most of the marbles and the game will be over. Goldman
> Sachs is the epitome of the process. The privatization of the currency and
> central banking system was supposed to provide greater stability. In fact
> much of the prior bank panics were caused by the Wall Street banks.
> Apparently it was the TARP program which sucked up the toxic assets. TALF
> looks instead to have been used as a sort of quantitative easing process.
> On the inflation of fiat currencies again having a low level of inflation
> built into the currency controls is also in their interests as a trade
> association, much like compound interest. William Black's articles and
> videos are particularly helpful in understanding what is going on behind
> the Oz curtain. He is exceptionally clear spoken, imo. On "collapse"
> looking at the effect of quantitative easing in Japan, it looks like our
> future, except that as a nation they have a much higher savings rate.
> Notably Japan and Germany have used used the devaluing of their currencies
> as a way to inflate asymmetric trade with the US. This usually expressed
> in terms a "weak" Yen and a "strong" dollar. China is using their foreign
> exchange reserve for different purposes, largely to buy up assets in the
> US and elsewhere as a way to pre-empt the collapse of the US and Euro
> economies. The situation with the "bad debt" in Germany is also a product
> of making commissions off of "ninja" loans, but at a country level. The
> EMU was for any real analysis  designed to fail from the beginning because
> relative to moving toward fair and balanced trade it is not in the
> interests of short or long term gains by the major banks for that to
> happen on a short to medium range basis. Wray does a good job of
> explaining this in this recent article:
>
> http://www.economonitor.com/lrwray/2011/09/29/euro-toast-anyone-the-meltdown-picks-up-speed/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=euro-toast-anyone-the-meltdown-picks-up-speed
>
> Tadit
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 06:17:42 -0400, Dante-Gabryell Monson
> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, in relation to TALF,
> > the Fed directly giving loans in exchange for co-lateral,
> > what happens if ( they manage to make ) the economy collapse ?
> >
> > All this co-lateral "owned" by the FED ?
> >
> > How big is TALF currently ?
> >
> > Fed already seems to take in 80 percent of Treasury securities...
> >
> >
> http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ponzi-scheme-the-federal-reserve-bought-approximately-80-percent-of-u-s-treasury-securities-issued-in-2009
> >
> > Note : Geithner, before being at the Treasury, was at the central bank of
> > New York :
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Geithner
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:15 AM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Dante, I believe that the TALF program is how the US Fed. Reserve
> >> "bought"/exchanged so called toxic assets from their private trade
> >> association members in exchange for digital money, also known as digital
> >> money issues and in another context as qual
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:07:41 -0400, Dante-Gabryell Monson
> >>
> >> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>  Thanks Tadit !
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 1:15 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  Just one of the issues that has been averted discussion in the EMU
> >>>> meltdown
> >>>> is the patently bad debt being held by German and French banks was the
> >>>> result of the same dynamic as occurred fir the US. What Geithner is
> >>>> now
> >>>> advocating for the EMU is a bail-out of those banks, it is not about
> >>>> the
> >>>> resuscitation of the EMU economies. It has almost always been framed a
> >>>> problem created by the PIIIGS countries, though the whole concept of
> >>>> the
> >>>> EMU/EU as it was perpetrated was predicted by informed people to
> >>>> implode.
> >>>> This is what world government in service to the plutocrats looks like,
> >>>> think
> >>>> Bilderberg. Subverting the nominal socialist and pro-labor governments
> >>>> was
> >>>> part of the take down. "Quantitative easing" both in Japan and more
> >>>> recently
> >>>> elsewhere has never been about supporting the productive parts of
> >>>> those
> >>>> economies. This is how economic illiteracy is exploited. Tadit
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 06:31:41 -0400, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
> >>>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>  Would be interesting to compare such figures with other aging
> >>>> "developed"
> >>>>
> >>>>> countries ?
> >>>>> Possibly similar kinds of figures can be found ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ///
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Perhaps a major question is "who owns the debt" ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ///
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the case of Japan, debt is at 227 percent in 2010, but is almost
> >>>>> entirely
> >>>>> Japanese owned.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ///
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for External Debt , some countries like Germany or Japan have
> >>>>> export
> >>>>> surpluses to compensate it ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.indexmundi.com/****germany/debt_external.html<
> http://www.indexmundi.com/**germany/debt_external.html>
> >>>>> <htt**p://www.indexmundi.com/**germany/debt_external.html<
> http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/debt_external.html>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ///
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What I am interested in, is Central Banks buying over debt, with
> >>>>> money
> >>>>> they
> >>>>> create out of thin air, increasing the monetary mass, but eventually
> >>>>> leading
> >>>>> to debasing the currency.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> When looking at who owns US debt, it is not as much the Chinese or
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> Japanese, as the Private Central Bank / "The Fed" ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ( I remember a chart, where one could see that one of the big US debt
> >>>>> buyers
> >>>>> is the federal reserve... - but I can not find that reference right
> >>>>> now
> >>>>> )
> >>>>>
> >>>>> here is another link :
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://**theeconomiccollapsebl**
> og.com/**archives/ponzi-**scheme-the-**<
> http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/**archives/ponzi-scheme-the-**>
> >>>>> federal-reserve-bought-****approximately-80-percent-of-u-****
> >>>>> s-treasury-securities-issued-****in-2009<http://**
> >>>>> theeconomiccollapseblog.com/**archives/ponzi-scheme-the-**
> >>>>> federal-reserve-bought-**approximately-80-percent-of-u-**
> >>>>> s-treasury-securities-issued-**in-2009<
> http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ponzi-scheme-the-federal-reserve-bought-approximately-80-percent-of-u-s-treasury-securities-issued-in-2009
> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> as for other US debt owners
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/****news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-****<
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/**news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-**>
> >>>>> debt-how-big-who-owns<http://**www.guardian.co.uk/news/**
> >>>>> datablog/2011/jul/15/us-debt-**how-big-who-owns<
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-debt-how-big-who-owns
> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the case of the US dollar, freeloading on the dollar being a world
> >>>>> reserve currency ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ///
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.2point6billion.com/****news/2010/03/04/china-debt-**96-**
> <http://www.2point6billion.com/**news/2010/03/04/china-debt-96-**>
> >>>>> percent-of-gdp-by-2011-4261.****html<http://www.**
> >>>>> 2point6billion.com/news/2010/**03/04/china-debt-96-percent-**
> >>>>> of-gdp-by-2011-4261.html<
> http://www.2point6billion.com/news/2010/03/04/china-debt-96-percent-of-gdp-by-2011-4261.html
> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The United States’  debt to GDP ratio is 94 percent, the United
> >>>>> Kingdom
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> at 380 percent, Japan at 227 percent, Greece at 115 percent and
> >>>>> Spain at
> >>>>> 70
> >>>>> percent.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> //
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.**currentusanationa**ldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-**
> >>>>> Japan.html<
> http://currentusanationaldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-Japan.html>
> >>>>> <http://www.**
> currentusanationaldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-Japan.html<
> http://www.currentusanationaldebt.com/National-Debt-of-Japan.html>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Japan carries a huge debt load, but it is different than what other
> >>>>> countries carry. The key issue is not the debt itself, but who owns
> >>>>> it.
> >>>>> In
> >>>>> this case, the Japanese debt is owned almost entirely by the citizens
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> companies of the country.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:18 AM, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  I think the following maybe of interest.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  *Germany Has 5 Trillion Euros of Hidden Debt, Handelsblatt Says<
> >>>>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/****news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-****<
> http://www.bloomberg.com/**news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-**>
> >>>>>> trillion-euros-of-hidden-debt-****handelsblatt-says.html<http:**
> >>>>>> //www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-**09-23/germany-has-5-trillion-**
> >>>>>> euros-of-hidden-debt-**handelsblatt-says.html<
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-trillion-euros-of-hidden-debt-handelsblatt-says.html
> >
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *
> >>>>>> www.bloomberg.com
> >>>>>> Germany’s public debt is much higher than officially shown,
> >>>>>> Handelsblatt
> >>>>>> reported, citing calculations by Bernd Raffelhueschen, an economics
> >>>>>> professor at Freiburg University.
> >>>>>>
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