Thanks Tadit!<div><br></div><div>interesting comments and references you provide!</div><div><br></div><div>I did not know about </div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><div>
William Black </div><div><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_K._Black" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 204); ">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_K._Black</a></div><div><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8CqaHTygSc" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 204); ">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8CqaHTygSc</a></div>
</span></div><div><br></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1">ps: I am not for the gold standard.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1">the site I gave was an easy reference to japan's debt or to the fed buying a great deal of treasury securities, found via first google entries.</font><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 2:20 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Dante,<br>
<br>
the website you provided the link to seems to be signed onto the gold<br>
standard concept which makes it probably libertarian in nature. It also is<br>
conflating fiat currencies as all fiat currencies, and does not identify<br>
privately issued currency versus sovereignty based issuance of currency.<br>
The US currency system is currently privately controlled. In a floating<br>
value currency exchange process, yes, currencies will both gain and lose<br>
value. That was also the case under a gold standard due to the private<br>
speculation and hoarding of gold Given that the US Federal Reserve is<br>
essentially a trade association of private banking interests, it operates<br>
as a wealth extraction mechanism. If most of the wealth is extracted their<br>
owners will have most of the marbles and the game will be over. Goldman<br>
Sachs is the epitome of the process. The privatization of the currency and<br>
central banking system was supposed to provide greater stability. In fact<br>
much of the prior bank panics were caused by the Wall Street banks.<br>
Apparently it was the TARP program which sucked up the toxic assets. TALF<br>
looks instead to have been used as a sort of quantitative easing process.<br>
On the inflation of fiat currencies again having a low level of inflation<br>
built into the currency controls is also in their interests as a trade<br>
association, much like compound interest. William Black's articles and<br>
videos are particularly helpful in understanding what is going on behind<br>
the Oz curtain. He is exceptionally clear spoken, imo. On "collapse"<br>
looking at the effect of quantitative easing in Japan, it looks like our<br>
future, except that as a nation they have a much higher savings rate.<br>
Notably Japan and Germany have used used the devaluing of their currencies<br>
as a way to inflate asymmetric trade with the US. This usually expressed<br>
in terms a "weak" Yen and a "strong" dollar. China is using their foreign<br>
exchange reserve for different purposes, largely to buy up assets in the<br>
US and elsewhere as a way to pre-empt the collapse of the US and Euro<br>
economies. The situation with the "bad debt" in Germany is also a product<br>
of making commissions off of "ninja" loans, but at a country level. The<br>
EMU was for any real analysis designed to fail from the beginning because<br>
relative to moving toward fair and balanced trade it is not in the<br>
interests of short or long term gains by the major banks for that to<br>
happen on a short to medium range basis. Wray does a good job of<br>
explaining this in this recent article:<br>
<a href="http://www.economonitor.com/lrwray/2011/09/29/euro-toast-anyone-the-meltdown-picks-up-speed/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=euro-toast-anyone-the-meltdown-picks-up-speed" target="_blank">http://www.economonitor.com/lrwray/2011/09/29/euro-toast-anyone-the-meltdown-picks-up-speed/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=euro-toast-anyone-the-meltdown-picks-up-speed</a><br>
<br>
Tadit<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 06:17:42 -0400, Dante-Gabryell Monson<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><<a href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Thanks, in relation to TALF,<br>
> the Fed directly giving loans in exchange for co-lateral,<br>
> what happens if ( they manage to make ) the economy collapse ?<br>
><br>
> All this co-lateral "owned" by the FED ?<br>
><br>
> How big is TALF currently ?<br>
><br>
> Fed already seems to take in 80 percent of Treasury securities...<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ponzi-scheme-the-federal-reserve-bought-approximately-80-percent-of-u-s-treasury-securities-issued-in-2009" target="_blank">http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ponzi-scheme-the-federal-reserve-bought-approximately-80-percent-of-u-s-treasury-securities-issued-in-2009</a><br>
><br>
> Note : Geithner, before being at the Treasury, was at the central bank of<br>
> New York :<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Geithner" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Geithner</a><br>
><br>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:15 AM, <<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Dante, I believe that the TALF program is how the US Fed. Reserve<br>
>> "bought"/exchanged so called toxic assets from their private trade<br>
>> association members in exchange for digital money, also known as digital<br>
>> money issues and in another context as qual<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:07:41 -0400, Dante-Gabryell Monson<br>
>><br>
>> <<a href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks Tadit !<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 1:15 PM, <<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Just one of the issues that has been averted discussion in the EMU<br>
>>>> meltdown<br>
>>>> is the patently bad debt being held by German and French banks was the<br>
>>>> result of the same dynamic as occurred fir the US. What Geithner is<br>
>>>> now<br>
>>>> advocating for the EMU is a bail-out of those banks, it is not about<br>
>>>> the<br>
>>>> resuscitation of the EMU economies. It has almost always been framed a<br>
>>>> problem created by the PIIIGS countries, though the whole concept of<br>
>>>> the<br>
>>>> EMU/EU as it was perpetrated was predicted by informed people to<br>
>>>> implode.<br>
>>>> This is what world government in service to the plutocrats looks like,<br>
>>>> think<br>
>>>> Bilderberg. Subverting the nominal socialist and pro-labor governments<br>
>>>> was<br>
>>>> part of the take down. "Quantitative easing" both in Japan and more<br>
>>>> recently<br>
>>>> elsewhere has never been about supporting the productive parts of<br>
>>>> those<br>
>>>> economies. This is how economic illiteracy is exploited. Tadit<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 06:31:41 -0400, Dante-Gabryell Monson <<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Would be interesting to compare such figures with other aging<br>
>>>> "developed"<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> countries ?<br>
>>>>> Possibly similar kinds of figures can be found ?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> ///<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Perhaps a major question is "who owns the debt" ?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> ///<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> In the case of Japan, debt is at 227 percent in 2010, but is almost<br>
>>>>> entirely<br>
>>>>> Japanese owned.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> ///<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> As for External Debt , some countries like Germany or Japan have<br>
>>>>> export<br>
>>>>> surpluses to compensate it ?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> <a href="http://www.indexmundi.com/****germany/debt_external.html" target="_blank">http://www.indexmundi.com/****germany/debt_external.html</a><<a href="http://www.indexmundi.com/**germany/debt_external.html" target="_blank">http://www.indexmundi.com/**germany/debt_external.html</a>><br>
</div></div>>>>>> <htt**p://<a href="http://www.indexmundi.com/**germany/debt_external.html" target="_blank">www.indexmundi.com/**germany/debt_external.html</a><<a href="http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/debt_external.html" target="_blank">http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/debt_external.html</a>><br>
<div class="im">>>>>> ><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> ///<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> What I am interested in, is Central Banks buying over debt, with<br>
>>>>> money<br>
>>>>> they<br>
>>>>> create out of thin air, increasing the monetary mass, but eventually<br>
>>>>> leading<br>
>>>>> to debasing the currency.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> When looking at who owns US debt, it is not as much the Chinese or<br>
>>>>> the<br>
>>>>> Japanese, as the Private Central Bank / "The Fed" ?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> ( I remember a chart, where one could see that one of the big US debt<br>
>>>>> buyers<br>
>>>>> is the federal reserve... - but I can not find that reference right<br>
>>>>> now<br>
>>>>> )<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> here is another link :<br>
>>>>><br>
</div>>>>>> http://**theeconomiccollapsebl**<a href="http://og.com/**archives/ponzi-**scheme-the-**" target="_blank">og.com/**archives/ponzi-**scheme-the-**</a><<a href="http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/**archives/ponzi-scheme-the-**" target="_blank">http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/**archives/ponzi-scheme-the-**</a>><br>
<div class="im">>>>>> federal-reserve-bought-****approximately-80-percent-of-u-****<br>
>>>>> s-treasury-securities-issued-****in-2009<http://**<br>
>>>>> <a href="http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/**archives/ponzi-scheme-the-**" target="_blank">theeconomiccollapseblog.com/**archives/ponzi-scheme-the-**</a><br>
>>>>> federal-reserve-bought-**approximately-80-percent-of-u-**<br>
>>>>> s-treasury-securities-issued-**in-2009<<a href="http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ponzi-scheme-the-federal-reserve-bought-approximately-80-percent-of-u-s-treasury-securities-issued-in-2009" target="_blank">http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ponzi-scheme-the-federal-reserve-bought-approximately-80-percent-of-u-s-treasury-securities-issued-in-2009</a>><br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> as for other US debt owners<br>
>>>>><br>
</div>>>>>> <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/****news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-****" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/****news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-****</a><<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/**news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-**" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/**news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-**</a>><br>
<div class="im">>>>>> debt-how-big-who-owns<http://**<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/**" target="_blank">www.guardian.co.uk/news/**</a><br>
</div>>>>>> datablog/2011/jul/15/us-debt-**how-big-who-owns<<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-debt-how-big-who-owns" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-debt-how-big-who-owns</a>><br>
<div class="im">>>>>> ><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> In the case of the US dollar, freeloading on the dollar being a world<br>
>>>>> reserve currency ?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> ///<br>
>>>>><br>
</div>>>>>> <a href="http://www.2point6billion.com/****news/2010/03/04/china-debt-**96-**" target="_blank">http://www.2point6billion.com/****news/2010/03/04/china-debt-**96-**</a><<a href="http://www.2point6billion.com/**news/2010/03/04/china-debt-96-**" target="_blank">http://www.2point6billion.com/**news/2010/03/04/china-debt-96-**</a>><br>
<div class="im">>>>>> percent-of-gdp-by-2011-4261.****html<<a href="http://www." target="_blank">http://www.</a>**<br>
>>>>> <a href="http://2point6billion.com/news/2010/**03/04/china-debt-96-percent-**" target="_blank">2point6billion.com/news/2010/**03/04/china-debt-96-percent-**</a><br>
</div>>>>>> of-gdp-by-2011-4261.html<<a href="http://www.2point6billion.com/news/2010/03/04/china-debt-96-percent-of-gdp-by-2011-4261.html" target="_blank">http://www.2point6billion.com/news/2010/03/04/china-debt-96-percent-of-gdp-by-2011-4261.html</a>><br>
<div class="im">>>>>> ><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> The United States’ debt to GDP ratio is 94 percent, the United<br>
>>>>> Kingdom<br>
>>>>> is<br>
>>>>> at 380 percent, Japan at 227 percent, Greece at 115 percent and<br>
>>>>> Spain at<br>
>>>>> 70<br>
>>>>> percent.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> //<br>
>>>>><br>
</div>>>>>> <a href="http://www." target="_blank">http://www.</a>**currentusanationa**<a href="http://ldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-**" target="_blank">ldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-**</a><br>
>>>>> Japan.html<<a href="http://currentusanationaldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-Japan.html" target="_blank">http://currentusanationaldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-Japan.html</a>><br>
<div class="im">>>>>> <<a href="http://www." target="_blank">http://www.</a>**<a href="http://currentusanationaldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-Japan.html" target="_blank">currentusanationaldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-Japan.html</a><<a href="http://www.currentusanationaldebt.com/National-Debt-of-Japan.html" target="_blank">http://www.currentusanationaldebt.com/National-Debt-of-Japan.html</a>><br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Japan carries a huge debt load, but it is different than what other<br>
>>>>> countries carry. The key issue is not the debt itself, but who owns<br>
>>>>> it.<br>
>>>>> In<br>
>>>>> this case, the Japanese debt is owned almost entirely by the citizens<br>
>>>>> and<br>
>>>>> companies of the country.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:18 AM, robert searle <<a href="mailto:dharao4@yahoo.co.uk">dharao4@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I think the following maybe of interest.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> *Germany Has 5 Trillion Euros of Hidden Debt, Handelsblatt Says<<br>
</div>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/****news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-****" target="_blank">http://www.bloomberg.com/****news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-****</a><<a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/**news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-**" target="_blank">http://www.bloomberg.com/**news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-**</a>><br>
<div class="im">>>>>>> trillion-euros-of-hidden-debt-****handelsblatt-says.html<http:**<br>
>>>>>> //<a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-**09-23/germany-has-5-trillion-**" target="_blank">www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-**09-23/germany-has-5-trillion-**</a><br>
>>>>>> euros-of-hidden-debt-**handelsblatt-says.html<<a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-trillion-euros-of-hidden-debt-handelsblatt-says.html" target="_blank">http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-trillion-euros-of-hidden-debt-handelsblatt-says.html</a>><br>
>>>>>> ><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> ><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> *<br>
>>>>>> <a href="http://www.bloomberg.com" target="_blank">www.bloomberg.com</a><br>
>>>>>> Germany’s public debt is much higher than officially shown,<br>
>>>>>> Handelsblatt<br>
>>>>>> reported, citing calculations by Bernd Raffelhueschen, an economics<br>
>>>>>> professor at Freiburg University.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________<br>
>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
>>>>>> <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>>>>>> <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/****cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-**" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/****cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-**</a><br>
>>>>>> **foundation<<a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/**cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-**foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/**cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-**foundation</a>><br>
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>>>>>> foundation<<a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a>><br>
>>>>>> ><br>
>>>>>><br>
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