[P2P-F] Germany has Hidden Debt??
ideasinc at ee.net
ideasinc at ee.net
Thu Sep 29 14:20:53 CEST 2011
Dante,
the website you provided the link to seems to be signed onto the gold
standard concept which makes it probably libertarian in nature. It also is
conflating fiat currencies as all fiat currencies, and does not identify
privately issued currency versus sovereignty based issuance of currency.
The US currency system is currently privately controlled. In a floating
value currency exchange process, yes, currencies will both gain and lose
value. That was also the case under a gold standard due to the private
speculation and hoarding of gold Given that the US Federal Reserve is
essentially a trade association of private banking interests, it operates
as a wealth extraction mechanism. If most of the wealth is extracted their
owners will have most of the marbles and the game will be over. Goldman
Sachs is the epitome of the process. The privatization of the currency and
central banking system was supposed to provide greater stability. In fact
much of the prior bank panics were caused by the Wall Street banks.
Apparently it was the TARP program which sucked up the toxic assets. TALF
looks instead to have been used as a sort of quantitative easing process.
On the inflation of fiat currencies again having a low level of inflation
built into the currency controls is also in their interests as a trade
association, much like compound interest. William Black's articles and
videos are particularly helpful in understanding what is going on behind
the Oz curtain. He is exceptionally clear spoken, imo. On "collapse"
looking at the effect of quantitative easing in Japan, it looks like our
future, except that as a nation they have a much higher savings rate.
Notably Japan and Germany have used used the devaluing of their currencies
as a way to inflate asymmetric trade with the US. This usually expressed
in terms a "weak" Yen and a "strong" dollar. China is using their foreign
exchange reserve for different purposes, largely to buy up assets in the
US and elsewhere as a way to pre-empt the collapse of the US and Euro
economies. The situation with the "bad debt" in Germany is also a product
of making commissions off of "ninja" loans, but at a country level. The
EMU was for any real analysis designed to fail from the beginning because
relative to moving toward fair and balanced trade it is not in the
interests of short or long term gains by the major banks for that to
happen on a short to medium range basis. Wray does a good job of
explaining this in this recent article:
http://www.economonitor.com/lrwray/2011/09/29/euro-toast-anyone-the-meltdown-picks-up-speed/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=euro-toast-anyone-the-meltdown-picks-up-speed
Tadit
On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 06:17:42 -0400, Dante-Gabryell Monson
<dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, in relation to TALF,
> the Fed directly giving loans in exchange for co-lateral,
> what happens if ( they manage to make ) the economy collapse ?
>
> All this co-lateral "owned" by the FED ?
>
> How big is TALF currently ?
>
> Fed already seems to take in 80 percent of Treasury securities...
>
> http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ponzi-scheme-the-federal-reserve-bought-approximately-80-percent-of-u-s-treasury-securities-issued-in-2009
>
> Note : Geithner, before being at the Treasury, was at the central bank of
> New York :
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Geithner
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:15 AM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
>
>> Dante, I believe that the TALF program is how the US Fed. Reserve
>> "bought"/exchanged so called toxic assets from their private trade
>> association members in exchange for digital money, also known as digital
>> money issues and in another context as qual
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:07:41 -0400, Dante-Gabryell Monson
>>
>> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Tadit !
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 1:15 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just one of the issues that has been averted discussion in the EMU
>>>> meltdown
>>>> is the patently bad debt being held by German and French banks was the
>>>> result of the same dynamic as occurred fir the US. What Geithner is
>>>> now
>>>> advocating for the EMU is a bail-out of those banks, it is not about
>>>> the
>>>> resuscitation of the EMU economies. It has almost always been framed a
>>>> problem created by the PIIIGS countries, though the whole concept of
>>>> the
>>>> EMU/EU as it was perpetrated was predicted by informed people to
>>>> implode.
>>>> This is what world government in service to the plutocrats looks like,
>>>> think
>>>> Bilderberg. Subverting the nominal socialist and pro-labor governments
>>>> was
>>>> part of the take down. "Quantitative easing" both in Japan and more
>>>> recently
>>>> elsewhere has never been about supporting the productive parts of
>>>> those
>>>> economies. This is how economic illiteracy is exploited. Tadit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 06:31:41 -0400, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>>>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Would be interesting to compare such figures with other aging
>>>> "developed"
>>>>
>>>>> countries ?
>>>>> Possibly similar kinds of figures can be found ?
>>>>>
>>>>> ///
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps a major question is "who owns the debt" ?
>>>>>
>>>>> ///
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of Japan, debt is at 227 percent in 2010, but is almost
>>>>> entirely
>>>>> Japanese owned.
>>>>>
>>>>> ///
>>>>>
>>>>> As for External Debt , some countries like Germany or Japan have
>>>>> export
>>>>> surpluses to compensate it ?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.indexmundi.com/****germany/debt_external.html<http://www.indexmundi.com/**germany/debt_external.html>
>>>>> <htt**p://www.indexmundi.com/**germany/debt_external.html<http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/debt_external.html>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ///
>>>>>
>>>>> What I am interested in, is Central Banks buying over debt, with
>>>>> money
>>>>> they
>>>>> create out of thin air, increasing the monetary mass, but eventually
>>>>> leading
>>>>> to debasing the currency.
>>>>>
>>>>> When looking at who owns US debt, it is not as much the Chinese or
>>>>> the
>>>>> Japanese, as the Private Central Bank / "The Fed" ?
>>>>>
>>>>> ( I remember a chart, where one could see that one of the big US debt
>>>>> buyers
>>>>> is the federal reserve... - but I can not find that reference right
>>>>> now
>>>>> )
>>>>>
>>>>> here is another link :
>>>>>
>>>>> http://**theeconomiccollapsebl**og.com/**archives/ponzi-**scheme-the-**<http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/**archives/ponzi-scheme-the-**>
>>>>> federal-reserve-bought-****approximately-80-percent-of-u-****
>>>>> s-treasury-securities-issued-****in-2009<http://**
>>>>> theeconomiccollapseblog.com/**archives/ponzi-scheme-the-**
>>>>> federal-reserve-bought-**approximately-80-percent-of-u-**
>>>>> s-treasury-securities-issued-**in-2009<http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ponzi-scheme-the-federal-reserve-bought-approximately-80-percent-of-u-s-treasury-securities-issued-in-2009>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> as for other US debt owners
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/****news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-****<http://www.guardian.co.uk/**news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-**>
>>>>> debt-how-big-who-owns<http://**www.guardian.co.uk/news/**
>>>>> datablog/2011/jul/15/us-debt-**how-big-who-owns<http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-debt-how-big-who-owns>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of the US dollar, freeloading on the dollar being a world
>>>>> reserve currency ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ///
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.2point6billion.com/****news/2010/03/04/china-debt-**96-**<http://www.2point6billion.com/**news/2010/03/04/china-debt-96-**>
>>>>> percent-of-gdp-by-2011-4261.****html<http://www.**
>>>>> 2point6billion.com/news/2010/**03/04/china-debt-96-percent-**
>>>>> of-gdp-by-2011-4261.html<http://www.2point6billion.com/news/2010/03/04/china-debt-96-percent-of-gdp-by-2011-4261.html>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The United States’ debt to GDP ratio is 94 percent, the United
>>>>> Kingdom
>>>>> is
>>>>> at 380 percent, Japan at 227 percent, Greece at 115 percent and
>>>>> Spain at
>>>>> 70
>>>>> percent.
>>>>>
>>>>> //
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.**currentusanationa**ldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-**
>>>>> Japan.html<http://currentusanationaldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-Japan.html>
>>>>> <http://www.**currentusanationaldebt.com/**National-Debt-of-Japan.html<http://www.currentusanationaldebt.com/National-Debt-of-Japan.html>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Japan carries a huge debt load, but it is different than what other
>>>>> countries carry. The key issue is not the debt itself, but who owns
>>>>> it.
>>>>> In
>>>>> this case, the Japanese debt is owned almost entirely by the citizens
>>>>> and
>>>>> companies of the country.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:18 AM, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the following maybe of interest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Germany Has 5 Trillion Euros of Hidden Debt, Handelsblatt Says<
>>>>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/****news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-****<http://www.bloomberg.com/**news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-**>
>>>>>> trillion-euros-of-hidden-debt-****handelsblatt-says.html<http:**
>>>>>> //www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-**09-23/germany-has-5-trillion-**
>>>>>> euros-of-hidden-debt-**handelsblatt-says.html<http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-trillion-euros-of-hidden-debt-handelsblatt-says.html>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> www.bloomberg.com
>>>>>> Germany’s public debt is much higher than officially shown,
>>>>>> Handelsblatt
>>>>>> reported, citing calculations by Bernd Raffelhueschen, an economics
>>>>>> professor at Freiburg University.
>>>>>>
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