[P2P-F] MMT/FEASTA...

Sat Sep 10 17:06:52 CEST 2011

thanks Tadit,

I'm pretty ignorant in economics, my point is simply that taxation of
low-spending capital owners, can be more productively invested by a social
state, and therefore, higher taxation, if spent well, does not only not
decrease economic activity, but can increase it ...

Michel

On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 9:11 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:

> Michael, this reply is more specific to your recollection of the MMT
> presentation/Q&A in Dublin.
>
>
>
> > however, I came out less than enthusiastic ..
> >
> > the reason is the following, one of the ladies who gave the lecture,
> > gave an
> > intro with the main principles of MMT, and one of the rules sounds really
> > simplistic supply-side to me
>
> Michael, what your impression and description of what you were told does
> seem like a repackaging of supply side economics, and the crux is in the
> details. It was in my opinion that what was described is actually the same
> economistic thinking that attempts to validate what is known as the
> "Laffer Curve." And then there is a caveat/disclaimer. A lot of the pseudo
> MMT stuff is wrapped around a very specific and neo-classical re-visionism
> that was applied to J. M. Keynes's body of works. J.M.K. evolved his own
> thinking and insights relative to economics over his life span. He started
> out as a neo-classical economist with an usually high sense of social
> integrity and responsibility, as evidenced early with his "Economic
> Consequences Of The Peace." The group of economists who identify
> themselves as post-Keynesians, which includes the MMT people begin from
> the position and theory developed in Keynes's later work.
>
> It is also very true that Keynes's legacy has been abused by the familiar
> neo-classical ..."savants," Specifically Milton Friedman as a transition
> ploy to corrupt Keynes theoretical contributions to serve otherwise
> contrary interests. At the time the public reputation of Keynes was very
> high post WWII, the politicals generally avoided Keynes's proposals. Joan
> Robinson a former associate and collaborator has described with strong
> authority that this ploy should be described as "bastard Keynesianism."
>
> Taxation within the MMT/Functional Fiscal finance at the sovereign
> (Federal) level is a way to control the concentration of wealth, and
> through the accelerating lobbying efforts a progress tax code has been
> replaced with a an entirely regressive application of taxation. Deficit
> spending under the bastard Keynesianism (neo-classical economics in
> costume) as enabled by the misrepresentation of Keynes used under the
> privatization "deficit" spending. Deficit spending when the government is
> a sovereign state can be issued entirely debt free, much as the US
> Continentals and the US Greenbacks were used. Taking back the sovereign
> power to issue currency does not even need legislative approval, just the
> information and the political integrity to decline massive levels of
> bribery.
>
> With regard for Keynes's effort to raise the awareness of the demand side
> of the economy a tax holiday for the producing classes is a Keynesian/MMT
> concept through and through. The generalization that this applies to all
> form of taxation is bluntly ignorant. The MMT/Post-Keynesians also more
> importantly advocate for countercyclical intervention in the creation of
> basic living wage jobs. The same set of assumptions, ie legitimate
> MMT/FF/Minsky et al, can be also applied to define "social
> infrastructure," such as education and health care as extensions of the
> commons.
>
> Yes, to the extent that taxation could reduce spendable income by
> individuals, yes that could cause the economy to slow down further.
> Corporations and particularly banking corporations currently don't have
> that constraint at all currently through the episodes of "Quantitative
> Easing" (Neo Classical wizardry of the golden oz.) hiring in response to
> demand will just not happen. So this part is just backwards at best, and
> worse simply illiterate even by intention.
>
> Taxation under a Georgist application of economics as a commons state and
> local taxes are levied under some recognition of the source of the value
> of infrastructure which is tha basis of community centered economics.
> Taxation upon idle and potential assets re-directs to not tax personal
> property by personal use. Taxation in this fashion can reduce the blight
> of land speculation based upon valuation being based upon the structure,
> contrary to the potential contribution to the community economy.
>
> enough for now, Tadit
>
>
>
> >
> > she said, lower taxes, and the economy grows, higher taxes, and the
> > economy
> > slows down ...
> >
> > Disbelieving I asked a question on this, and she confirmed, and this
> > pretty
> > much discredits MMT for me,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:27 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael, this is the link to Bill Mitchell's Billy Blog site and the
> >> first
> >> segment of 7 in total.
> >>
> >> http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=6122
> >>
> >>  Mitchell is one of the top authorities on modern monetary economics
> >> which
> >> is the discourse which has applied what was learned from legitimate
> >> interpretations of Keynes and of the demand side economics of the WPA,
> >> CCC, and NYA as progressive (U.S.) responses to the 20th century Great
> >> Depression. Mitchell covers a list of "progressive" nominal
> >> economists/establishments in the successive entries. L. Randall Wray of
> >> the Univ. of Missouri Kansas City Econ. Dept has made similar statements
> >> which would take me a bit longer to produce. The core difference is
> >> between the economic assumptions being applied. The New Economic
> >> Perspectives from Kansas City blog has a treasure trove of resources
> >> both
> >> in the current primer review and of other stand alone materials. It may
> >> require a bit of translation. Mitchell is at the top of his class in
> >> terms
> >> of modern monetary economics and as a perspective it has been one of the
> >> few opposing perspectives relative the well funded deficit terrorism
> >> campaigns. Some of the material may seem counter-intuitive, and it is
> >> based upon in part how central banking actually operates currently, only
> >> how those principles can serve a more public and more social agenda. The
> >> counter-intuitive part derives from the neo-classical framing which has
> >> dominated the field for decades if not longer. Ie, by its familiarity,
> >> the
> >> neo-classical framing seems correct when it is not actually, and serves
> >> to
> >> contain genuine progressive initiatives within a neo-classical box of
> >> assumptions. On a related topic, what is known as Jevons's Paradox is
> >> often applied within ecological and environmental circles to "prove" the
> >> futility of progressive energy measures and energy efficient technology,
> >> ends up being paradoxical only within the neo-classical set of
> >> assumptions.
> >>
> >> as we go, Tadit
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:49:51 -0400, Michel Bauwens
> >> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > thanks, do you have a link to the baker critique you mention below?
> >> >
> >> > Michel
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:59 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Y'all, Baker tends to have a reputation of being strong on the
> >> rhetoric
> >> >> but very weak on the actual economics side of his material. It has
> >> been
> >> >> demonstrated that his economic assumptions are neo-liberal in their
> >> >> substance. Though this might be an interesting foray at one level, if
> >> >> done
> >> >> in a less than serious fashion it is likely to promote economic
> >> >> illiteracy. This may seem harsh, and buying into the
> >> >> neo-liberal/neo-classical framing of our situation cuts off even
> >> >> imagining
> >> >> informed fiscal options. I come from primarily a post-Keynesian
> >> >> macro-economics and functional finance perspective, and this sits
> >> well
> >> >> with my 20 plus years of being active in community centered economic
> >> >> activism, from entrepreneurship development, to being treasurer of
> >> two
> >> >> different cooperatives, to being downstream of fraud perpetrated
> >> under a
> >> >> false flag of left "progressiv-ism," and other investments regarding.
> >> >> Just
> >> >> finished a series of essays by Bill Mitchell which included a
> >> critique
> >> >> of
> >> >> Dean Baker's economics, entitled "With Friends, Like These..."
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Tadit Anderson, Re-Imagining Economics
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 01:50:04 -0400, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> http://deanbaker.net/images/stories/documents/End-of-Loser-Liberalism.pdf
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi Kevin, perhaps you'd find chapter 10 interesting, and even
> >> chapter
> >> >> 11,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > commentary always appreciated if you have time,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Michel
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >> >
> >>
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>
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