[P2P-F] MMT/FEASTA...back

Sat Sep 10 18:20:48 CEST 2011

Michel, I believe that your intuition and intent are clear. The whole  
point is to engage is a productive discourse. It gives me opportunity to  
express this stuff in as an  accessible a manner as possible. And that  
seems to come best with practice.

Tadit

On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:06:52 -0400, Michel Bauwens  
<michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:

> thanks Tadit,
>
> I'm pretty ignorant in economics, my point is simply that taxation of
> low-spending capital owners, can be more productively invested by a  
> social
> state, and therefore, higher taxation, if spent well, does not only not
> decrease economic activity, but can increase it ...
>
> Michel
>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 9:11 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
>
>> Michael, this reply is more specific to your recollection of the MMT
>> presentation/Q&A in Dublin.
>>
>>
>>
>> > however, I came out less than enthusiastic ..
>> >
>> > the reason is the following, one of the ladies who gave the lecture,
>> > gave an
>> > intro with the main principles of MMT, and one of the rules sounds  
>> really
>> > simplistic supply-side to me
>>
>> Michael, what your impression and description of what you were told does
>> seem like a repackaging of supply side economics, and the crux is in the
>> details. It was in my opinion that what was described is actually the  
>> same
>> economistic thinking that attempts to validate what is known as the
>> "Laffer Curve." And then there is a caveat/disclaimer. A lot of the  
>> pseudo
>> MMT stuff is wrapped around a very specific and neo-classical  
>> re-visionism
>> that was applied to J. M. Keynes's body of works. J.M.K. evolved his own
>> thinking and insights relative to economics over his life span. He  
>> started
>> out as a neo-classical economist with an usually high sense of social
>> integrity and responsibility, as evidenced early with his "Economic
>> Consequences Of The Peace." The group of economists who identify
>> themselves as post-Keynesians, which includes the MMT people begin from
>> the position and theory developed in Keynes's later work.
>>
>> It is also very true that Keynes's legacy has been abused by the  
>> familiar
>> neo-classical ..."savants," Specifically Milton Friedman as a transition
>> ploy to corrupt Keynes theoretical contributions to serve otherwise
>> contrary interests. At the time the public reputation of Keynes was very
>> high post WWII, the politicals generally avoided Keynes's proposals.  
>> Joan
>> Robinson a former associate and collaborator has described with strong
>> authority that this ploy should be described as "bastard Keynesianism."
>>
>> Taxation within the MMT/Functional Fiscal finance at the sovereign
>> (Federal) level is a way to control the concentration of wealth, and
>> through the accelerating lobbying efforts a progress tax code has been
>> replaced with a an entirely regressive application of taxation. Deficit
>> spending under the bastard Keynesianism (neo-classical economics in
>> costume) as enabled by the misrepresentation of Keynes used under the
>> privatization "deficit" spending. Deficit spending when the government  
>> is
>> a sovereign state can be issued entirely debt free, much as the US
>> Continentals and the US Greenbacks were used. Taking back the sovereign
>> power to issue currency does not even need legislative approval, just  
>> the
>> information and the political integrity to decline massive levels of
>> bribery.
>>
>> With regard for Keynes's effort to raise the awareness of the demand  
>> side
>> of the economy a tax holiday for the producing classes is a  
>> Keynesian/MMT
>> concept through and through. The generalization that this applies to all
>> form of taxation is bluntly ignorant. The MMT/Post-Keynesians also more
>> importantly advocate for countercyclical intervention in the creation of
>> basic living wage jobs. The same set of assumptions, ie legitimate
>> MMT/FF/Minsky et al, can be also applied to define "social
>> infrastructure," such as education and health care as extensions of the
>> commons.
>>
>> Yes, to the extent that taxation could reduce spendable income by
>> individuals, yes that could cause the economy to slow down further.
>> Corporations and particularly banking corporations currently don't have
>> that constraint at all currently through the episodes of "Quantitative
>> Easing" (Neo Classical wizardry of the golden oz.) hiring in response to
>> demand will just not happen. So this part is just backwards at best, and
>> worse simply illiterate even by intention.
>>
>> Taxation under a Georgist application of economics as a commons state  
>> and
>> local taxes are levied under some recognition of the source of the value
>> of infrastructure which is tha basis of community centered economics.
>> Taxation upon idle and potential assets re-directs to not tax personal
>> property by personal use. Taxation in this fashion can reduce the blight
>> of land speculation based upon valuation being based upon the structure,
>> contrary to the potential contribution to the community economy.
>>
>> enough for now, Tadit
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > she said, lower taxes, and the economy grows, higher taxes, and the
>> > economy
>> > slows down ...
>> >
>> > Disbelieving I asked a question on this, and she confirmed, and this
>> > pretty
>> > much discredits MMT for me,
>> >
>> > Michel
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:27 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Michael, this is the link to Bill Mitchell's Billy Blog site and the
>> >> first
>> >> segment of 7 in total.
>> >>
>> >> http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=6122
>> >>
>> >>  Mitchell is one of the top authorities on modern monetary economics
>> >> which
>> >> is the discourse which has applied what was learned from legitimate
>> >> interpretations of Keynes and of the demand side economics of the  
>> WPA,
>> >> CCC, and NYA as progressive (U.S.) responses to the 20th century  
>> Great
>> >> Depression. Mitchell covers a list of "progressive" nominal
>> >> economists/establishments in the successive entries. L. Randall Wray  
>> of
>> >> the Univ. of Missouri Kansas City Econ. Dept has made similar  
>> statements
>> >> which would take me a bit longer to produce. The core difference is
>> >> between the economic assumptions being applied. The New Economic
>> >> Perspectives from Kansas City blog has a treasure trove of resources
>> >> both
>> >> in the current primer review and of other stand alone materials. It  
>> may
>> >> require a bit of translation. Mitchell is at the top of his class in
>> >> terms
>> >> of modern monetary economics and as a perspective it has been one of  
>> the
>> >> few opposing perspectives relative the well funded deficit terrorism
>> >> campaigns. Some of the material may seem counter-intuitive, and it is
>> >> based upon in part how central banking actually operates currently,  
>> only
>> >> how those principles can serve a more public and more social agenda.  
>> The
>> >> counter-intuitive part derives from the neo-classical framing which  
>> has
>> >> dominated the field for decades if not longer. Ie, by its  
>> familiarity,
>> >> the
>> >> neo-classical framing seems correct when it is not actually, and  
>> serves
>> >> to
>> >> contain genuine progressive initiatives within a neo-classical box of
>> >> assumptions. On a related topic, what is known as Jevons's Paradox is
>> >> often applied within ecological and environmental circles to "prove"  
>> the
>> >> futility of progressive energy measures and energy efficient  
>> technology,
>> >> ends up being paradoxical only within the neo-classical set of
>> >> assumptions.
>> >>
>> >> as we go, Tadit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:49:51 -0400, Michel Bauwens
>> >> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > thanks, do you have a link to the baker critique you mention below?
>> >> >
>> >> > Michel
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:59 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Y'all, Baker tends to have a reputation of being strong on the
>> >> rhetoric
>> >> >> but very weak on the actual economics side of his material. It has
>> >> been
>> >> >> demonstrated that his economic assumptions are neo-liberal in  
>> their
>> >> >> substance. Though this might be an interesting foray at one  
>> level, if
>> >> >> done
>> >> >> in a less than serious fashion it is likely to promote economic
>> >> >> illiteracy. This may seem harsh, and buying into the
>> >> >> neo-liberal/neo-classical framing of our situation cuts off even
>> >> >> imagining
>> >> >> informed fiscal options. I come from primarily a post-Keynesian
>> >> >> macro-economics and functional finance perspective, and this sits
>> >> well
>> >> >> with my 20 plus years of being active in community centered  
>> economic
>> >> >> activism, from entrepreneurship development, to being treasurer of
>> >> two
>> >> >> different cooperatives, to being downstream of fraud perpetrated
>> >> under a
>> >> >> false flag of left "progressiv-ism," and other investments  
>> regarding.
>> >> >> Just
>> >> >> finished a series of essays by Bill Mitchell which included a
>> >> critique
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> Dean Baker's economics, entitled "With Friends, Like These..."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tadit Anderson, Re-Imagining Economics
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 01:50:04 -0400, Michel Bauwens
>> >> >> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> http://deanbaker.net/images/stories/documents/End-of-Loser-Liberalism.pdf
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hi Kevin, perhaps you'd find chapter 10 interesting, and even
>> >> chapter
>> >> >> 11,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > commentary always appreciated if you have time,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Michel
>> >> >>
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
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>
>