thanks Tadit,<br><br>I'm pretty ignorant in economics, my point is simply that taxation of low-spending capital owners, can be more productively invested by a social state, and therefore, higher taxation, if spent well, does not only not decrease economic activity, but can increase it ...<br>
<br>Michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 9:11 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Michael, this reply is more specific to your recollection of the MMT<br>
presentation/Q&A in Dublin.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> however, I came out less than enthusiastic ..<br>
><br>
> the reason is the following, one of the ladies who gave the lecture,<br>
> gave an<br>
> intro with the main principles of MMT, and one of the rules sounds really<br>
> simplistic supply-side to me<br>
<br>
Michael, what your impression and description of what you were told does<br>
seem like a repackaging of supply side economics, and the crux is in the<br>
details. It was in my opinion that what was described is actually the same<br>
economistic thinking that attempts to validate what is known as the<br>
"Laffer Curve." And then there is a caveat/disclaimer. A lot of the pseudo<br>
MMT stuff is wrapped around a very specific and neo-classical re-visionism<br>
that was applied to J. M. Keynes's body of works. J.M.K. evolved his own<br>
thinking and insights relative to economics over his life span. He started<br>
out as a neo-classical economist with an usually high sense of social<br>
integrity and responsibility, as evidenced early with his "Economic<br>
Consequences Of The Peace." The group of economists who identify<br>
themselves as post-Keynesians, which includes the MMT people begin from<br>
the position and theory developed in Keynes's later work.<br>
<br>
It is also very true that Keynes's legacy has been abused by the familiar<br>
neo-classical ..."savants," Specifically Milton Friedman as a transition<br>
ploy to corrupt Keynes theoretical contributions to serve otherwise<br>
contrary interests. At the time the public reputation of Keynes was very<br>
high post WWII, the politicals generally avoided Keynes's proposals. Joan<br>
Robinson a former associate and collaborator has described with strong<br>
authority that this ploy should be described as "bastard Keynesianism."<br>
<br>
Taxation within the MMT/Functional Fiscal finance at the sovereign<br>
(Federal) level is a way to control the concentration of wealth, and<br>
through the accelerating lobbying efforts a progress tax code has been<br>
replaced with a an entirely regressive application of taxation. Deficit<br>
spending under the bastard Keynesianism (neo-classical economics in<br>
costume) as enabled by the misrepresentation of Keynes used under the<br>
privatization "deficit" spending. Deficit spending when the government is<br>
a sovereign state can be issued entirely debt free, much as the US<br>
Continentals and the US Greenbacks were used. Taking back the sovereign<br>
power to issue currency does not even need legislative approval, just the<br>
information and the political integrity to decline massive levels of<br>
bribery.<br>
<br>
With regard for Keynes's effort to raise the awareness of the demand side<br>
of the economy a tax holiday for the producing classes is a Keynesian/MMT<br>
concept through and through. The generalization that this applies to all<br>
form of taxation is bluntly ignorant. The MMT/Post-Keynesians also more<br>
importantly advocate for countercyclical intervention in the creation of<br>
basic living wage jobs. The same set of assumptions, ie legitimate<br>
MMT/FF/Minsky et al, can be also applied to define "social<br>
infrastructure," such as education and health care as extensions of the<br>
commons.<br>
<br>
Yes, to the extent that taxation could reduce spendable income by<br>
individuals, yes that could cause the economy to slow down further.<br>
Corporations and particularly banking corporations currently don't have<br>
that constraint at all currently through the episodes of "Quantitative<br>
Easing" (Neo Classical wizardry of the golden oz.) hiring in response to<br>
demand will just not happen. So this part is just backwards at best, and<br>
worse simply illiterate even by intention.<br>
<br>
Taxation under a Georgist application of economics as a commons state and<br>
local taxes are levied under some recognition of the source of the value<br>
of infrastructure which is tha basis of community centered economics.<br>
Taxation upon idle and potential assets re-directs to not tax personal<br>
property by personal use. Taxation in this fashion can reduce the blight<br>
of land speculation based upon valuation being based upon the structure,<br>
contrary to the potential contribution to the community economy.<br>
<br>
enough for now, Tadit<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> she said, lower taxes, and the economy grows, higher taxes, and the<br>
> economy<br>
> slows down ...<br>
><br>
> Disbelieving I asked a question on this, and she confirmed, and this<br>
> pretty<br>
> much discredits MMT for me,<br>
><br>
> Michel<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:27 PM, <<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Michael, this is the link to Bill Mitchell's Billy Blog site and the<br>
>> first<br>
>> segment of 7 in total.<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=6122" target="_blank">http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=6122</a><br>
>><br>
>> �Mitchell is one of the top authorities on modern monetary economics<br>
>> which<br>
>> is the discourse which has applied what was learned from legitimate<br>
>> interpretations of Keynes and of the demand side economics of the WPA,<br>
>> CCC, and NYA as progressive (U.S.) responses to the 20th century Great<br>
>> Depression. Mitchell covers a list of "progressive" nominal<br>
>> economists/establishments in the successive entries. L. Randall Wray of<br>
>> the Univ. of Missouri Kansas City Econ. Dept has made similar statements<br>
>> which would take me a bit longer to produce. The core difference is<br>
>> between the economic assumptions being applied. The New Economic<br>
>> Perspectives from Kansas City blog has a treasure trove of resources<br>
>> both<br>
>> in the current primer review and of other stand alone materials. It may<br>
>> require a bit of translation. Mitchell is at the top of his class in<br>
>> terms<br>
>> of modern monetary economics and as a perspective it has been one of the<br>
>> few opposing perspectives relative the well funded deficit terrorism<br>
>> campaigns. Some of the material may seem counter-intuitive, and it is<br>
>> based upon in part how central banking actually operates currently, only<br>
>> how those principles can serve a more public and more social agenda. The<br>
>> counter-intuitive part derives from the neo-classical framing which has<br>
>> dominated the field for decades if not longer. Ie, by its familiarity,<br>
>> the<br>
>> neo-classical framing seems correct when it is not actually, and serves<br>
>> to<br>
>> contain genuine progressive initiatives within a neo-classical box of<br>
>> assumptions. On a related topic, what is known as Jevons's Paradox is<br>
>> often applied within ecological and environmental circles to "prove" the<br>
>> futility of progressive energy measures and energy efficient technology,<br>
>> ends up being paradoxical only within the neo-classical set of<br>
>> assumptions.<br>
>><br>
>> as we go, Tadit<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:49:51 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> > thanks, do you have a link to the baker critique you mention below?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Michel<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:59 PM, <<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> Y'all, Baker tends to have a reputation of being strong on the<br>
>> rhetoric<br>
>> >> but very weak on the actual economics side of his material. It has<br>
>> been<br>
>> >> demonstrated that his economic assumptions are neo-liberal in their<br>
>> >> substance. Though this might be an interesting foray at one level, if<br>
>> >> done<br>
>> >> in a less than serious fashion it is likely to promote economic<br>
>> >> illiteracy. This may seem harsh, and buying into the<br>
>> >> neo-liberal/neo-classical framing of our situation cuts off even<br>
>> >> imagining<br>
>> >> informed fiscal options. I come from primarily a post-Keynesian<br>
>> >> macro-economics and functional finance perspective, and this sits<br>
>> well<br>
>> >> with my 20 plus years of being active in community centered economic<br>
>> >> activism, from entrepreneurship development, to being treasurer of<br>
>> two<br>
>> >> different cooperatives, to being downstream of fraud perpetrated<br>
>> under a<br>
>> >> false flag of left "progressiv-ism," and other investments regarding.<br>
>> >> Just<br>
>> >> finished a series of essays by Bill Mitchell which included a<br>
>> critique<br>
>> >> of<br>
>> >> Dean Baker's economics, entitled "With Friends, Like These..."<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Tadit Anderson, Re-Imagining Economics<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 01:50:04 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >><br>
>> <a href="http://deanbaker.net/images/stories/documents/End-of-Loser-Liberalism.pdf" target="_blank">http://deanbaker.net/images/stories/documents/End-of-Loser-Liberalism.pdf</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Hi Kevin, perhaps you'd find chapter 10 interesting, and even<br>
>> chapter<br>
>> >> 11,<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > commentary always appreciated if you have time,<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Michel<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
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>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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