[P2P-F] Libertarians

Thu Oct 20 02:46:26 CEST 2011

I prefer it too-preference isn’t an option. We can’t vote for the reality we choose. I think the best/quickest road to that end is develop
responsible govts-that must deal with each other in a just way. This requires educated, responsible citizens. Can’t happen with the financial bosses & global capitalists in control. This is nothing new. But the internet brings hope.
From: Dante-Gabryell Monson 
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:28 PM
To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Libertarians

Interesting discussion. 

In my view, a "mad max" distopia is present in the form of massive inequality,
and a world where people have guns ( to protect themselves in such a world of inequality ? )

I personally prefer a world without guns, and without inequality ( to start with, via the right of a unconditional basic income measured in use value, not money ) .

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 1:58 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:

  Thank you Devin. While I appreciate Kevin’s sincerity-I see him in an alternate universe. If it came to fruition, I think the unintended consequences would be a “Mad Max” world of gang violence as opinions wavered on the legitimacy of Big D or little d rights/privileges depending on the location &moment- or govt imposed tyranny. Nation States exist, and they have borders that are much more than mathematical crosshairs on the globe. You can’t throw away thousands of years of civilizations’ attempt to codify property and human rights & obligations. The best we can do is encourage/support individuals to be more responsible citizens (of their respective nations)which includes reining in the corrupt govt/corporatist/military collusion that restrains all our progress.

  From: Devin Balkind 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:42 AM
  To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
  Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Libertarians

  Just some quick thoughts:

  Michel - I'd imagine -  would rather the government have all the guns and trust that they'll use them to enforce equality than to have faith in the people and their capacity to organize.

  If you have communautarian feelings then express them through actions - not taxes.

  Ron Paul finds the federal government an unacceptable entity to force people to use their private property in a particular way.  I might disagree with the extent to which he applies his philosophy but I respect it enough not to demonize it.  

  Every nation has a unique history and identity.  I think we should encourage political differentiation within the framework of increasing people's access to technologies that enable them to escape coercion by becoming more self sufficient.

  On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:

    I think that this is the heart of the matter and an obvious difference between 'left' and 'right' approaches' 

    it's really about how far you extend the circle of care .. for right-minded people it's nearly always about 'just for us' and they can have deep communautarian feelings (except probably for committed anarcho-capitalists who only believe in individual contracting and full commodification of all things), by contrast the left wants to extend it. ron paul finds it acceptable to refuse entry to black people on the basis of property rights, something no person on the left could tolerate ... natalie explicetely rejects the quest for equality even thought the revolt against inequality is at the heart of this movement .. but we can find commonality around freedom .. 

    though of course, freedom without equality is a chimera, as you need a gun to protect you from your neighbour ...

    and the greatest the differential, the greater number of guns needed (now nearly a quarter of the workforce ?)

    Michel

    On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulot cakis <xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:

         That is what a conservative libertarian would say. ''Protect the liberty of a certain group of people, for example the american people. This is how the greek athenian democrarcry worked as well. It wars a democracy for menr. But if we start thinking about liberty to a set of people we end up with the conclusion that everyone is a libertarian (take as a set only yourself ). That would make the use of the word libertarian unnecessary (as we all are libertarians). Since the word is used to differentiate between people, we end up through Reductio ad absurdum that your defintion of libertarian is wrong. 
      We also end up with the conclusion that you are not a libertarian.

      As a personal remark, I would say that such a wrong definition of libertarian was always used as an excuse to diminish the liberties of others.

      (reading math.. right now)

      2011/10/17 Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>

        Nations still exist. You can be a libertarian with regards to the rights/responsibilities/privileges/policies of your own citizens wo extending them to the universal

        _______________________________________________
        P2P Foundation - Mailing list
        http://www.p2pfoundation.net
        https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

      -- 

Sincerely yours,      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis

      _______________________________________________
      P2P Foundation - Mailing list
      http://www.p2pfoundation.net
      https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

    -- 
    P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 

    Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation 

    Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

    _______________________________________________
    P2P Foundation - Mailing list
    http://www.p2pfoundation.net
    https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

  -- 
  Devin Balkind
  Director, Sarapis Foundation 
  devin at sarapisfoundation.org
  @devinbalkind

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________
  P2P Foundation - Mailing list
  http://www.p2pfoundation.net
  https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

  _______________________________________________
  P2P Foundation - Mailing list
  http://www.p2pfoundation.net
  https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
http://www.p2pfoundation.net
https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/attachments/20111019/64be6d4e/attachment.htm 