[P2P-F] Libertarians

Thu Oct 20 01:28:23 CEST 2011

Interesting discussion.

In my view, a "mad max" distopia is present in the form of massive
inequality,
and a world where people have guns ( to protect themselves in such a world
of inequality ? )

I personally prefer a world without guns, and without inequality ( to start
with, via the right of a unconditional basic income measured in use value,
not money ) .

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 1:58 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:

>   Thank you Devin. While I appreciate Kevin’s sincerity-I see him in an
> alternate universe. If it came to fruition, I think the unintended
> consequences would be a “Mad Max” world of gang violence as opinions wavered
> on the legitimacy of Big D or little d rights/privileges depending on the
> location &moment- or govt imposed tyranny. Nation States exist, and they
> have borders that are much more than mathematical crosshairs on the globe.
> You can’t throw away thousands of years of civilizations’ attempt to codify
> property and human rights & obligations. The best we can do is
> encourage/support individuals to be more responsible citizens (of their
> respective nations)which includes reining in the corrupt
> govt/corporatist/military collusion that restrains all our progress.
>
>  *From:* Devin Balkind <devin at sarapisfoundation.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:42 AM
> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Libertarians
>
> Just some quick thoughts:
>
> Michel - I'd imagine -  would rather the government have all the guns and
> trust that they'll use them to enforce equality than to have faith in the
> people and their capacity to organize.
>
> If you have communautarian feelings then express them through actions - not
> taxes.
>
> Ron Paul finds the federal government an unacceptable entity to force
> people to use their private property in a particular way.  I might disagree
> with the extent to which he applies his philosophy but I respect it enough
> not to demonize it.
>
> Every nation has a unique history and identity.  I think we should
> encourage political differentiation within the framework of increasing
> people's access to technologies that enable them to escape coercion by
> becoming more self sufficient.
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>wrote:
>
>> I think that this is the heart of the matter and an obvious difference
>> between 'left' and 'right' approaches'
>>
>> it's really about how far you extend the circle of care .. for
>> right-minded people it's nearly always about 'just for us' and they can have
>> deep communautarian feelings (except probably for committed
>> anarcho-capitalists who only believe in individual contracting and full
>> commodification of all things), by contrast the left wants to extend it. ron
>> paul finds it acceptable to refuse entry to black people on the basis of
>> property rights, something no person on the left could tolerate ... natalie
>> explicetely rejects the quest for equality even thought the revolt against
>> inequality is at the heart of this movement .. but we can find commonality
>> around freedom ..
>>
>> though of course, freedom without equality is a chimera, as you need a gun
>> to protect you from your neighbour ...
>>
>> and the greatest the differential, the greater number of guns needed (now
>> nearly a quarter of the workforce ?)
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulot cakis <
>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>    That is what a conservative libertarian would say. ''Protect the
>>> liberty of a certain group of people, for example the american people. This
>>> is how the greek athenian democrarcry worked as well. It wars a democracy
>>> for menr. But if we start thinking about liberty to a set of people we end
>>> up with the conclusion that everyone is a libertarian (take as a set only
>>> yourself ). That would make the use of the word libertarian unnecessary (as
>>> we all are libertarians). Since the word is used to differentiate between
>>> people, we end up through *Reductio ad absurdum *that your defintion of
>>> libertarian is wrong.
>>> We also end up with the conclusion that you are not a libertarian.
>>>
>>> As a personal remark, I would say that such a wrong definition of
>>> libertarian was always used as an excuse to diminish the liberties of
>>> others.
>>>
>>> (reading math.. right now)
>>>
>>> 2011/10/17 Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>
>>>
>>>>   Nations still exist. You can be a libertarian with regards to the
>>>> rights/responsibilities/privileges/policies of your own citizens wo
>>>> extending them to the universal
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>
>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Devin Balkind
> Director, Sarapis Foundation
> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> @devinbalkind
>
>  ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/attachments/20111020/8a017729/attachment.htm 