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<DIV>I prefer it too-preference isn’t an option. We can’t vote for the reality
we choose. I think the best/quickest road to that end is develop</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>responsible govts-that must deal with each other
in a just way. This requires educated, responsible citizens. Can’t happen with
the financial bosses & global capitalists in control. This is nothing new.
But the internet brings hope.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=dante.monson@gmail.com
href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com">Dante-Gabryell Monson</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:28 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">P2P Foundation mailing
list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] Libertarians</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Interesting
discussion.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In my view, a "mad max" distopia is present in the form of massive
inequality,</DIV>
<DIV>and a world where people have guns ( to protect themselves in such a world
of inequality ? )</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I personally prefer a world without guns, and without inequality ( to start
with, via the right of a unconditional basic income measured in use value, not
money ) .</DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 1:58 AM, Natalie Golovin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net">10natalie@cox.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
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class=gmail_quote>
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<DIV>Thank you Devin. While I appreciate Kevin’s sincerity-I see him in an
alternate universe. If it came to fruition, I think the unintended
consequences would be a “Mad Max” world of gang violence as opinions wavered
on the legitimacy of Big D or little d rights/privileges depending on the
location &moment- or govt imposed tyranny. Nation States exist, and they
have borders that are much more than mathematical crosshairs on the globe. You
can’t throw away thousands of years of civilizations’ attempt to codify
property and human rights & obligations. The best we can do is
encourage/support individuals to be more responsible citizens (of their
respective nations)which includes reining in the corrupt
govt/corporatist/military collusion that restrains all our progress.</DIV>
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<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=devin@sarapisfoundation.org
href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org" target=_blank>Devin Balkind</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:42 AM</DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target=_blank>P2P Foundation
mailing list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] Libertarians</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=h5>Just some quick thoughts:<BR><BR>Michel - I'd imagine -
would rather the government have all the guns and trust that they'll use them
to enforce equality than to have faith in the people and their capacity to
organize.<BR><BR>If you have communautarian feelings then express them through
actions - not taxes.<BR><BR>Ron Paul finds the federal government an
unacceptable entity to force people to use their private property in a
particular way. I might disagree with the extent to which he applies his
philosophy but I respect it enough not to demonize it. <BR><BR>Every
nation has a unique history and identity. I think we should encourage
political differentiation within the framework of increasing people's access
to technologies that enable them to escape coercion by becoming more self
sufficient.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>michel@p2pfoundation.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>I think that this is the heart of the matter and an
obvious difference between 'left' and 'right' approaches' <BR><BR>it's
really about how far you extend the circle of care .. for right-minded
people it's nearly always about 'just for us' and they can have deep
communautarian feelings (except probably for committed anarcho-capitalists
who only believe in individual contracting and full commodification of all
things), by contrast the left wants to extend it. ron paul finds it
acceptable to refuse entry to black people on the basis of property rights,
something no person on the left could tolerate ... natalie explicetely
rejects the quest for equality even thought the revolt against inequality is
at the heart of this movement .. but we can find commonality around freedom
..
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>though of course, freedom without equality is a chimera, as you need a
gun to protect you from your neighbour ...<BR> </DIV>
<DIV>and the greatest the differential, the greater number of guns needed
(now nearly a quarter of the workforce ?)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Michel</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Apostolis
Xekoukoulot cakis <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:xekoukou@gmail.com"
target=_blank>xekoukou@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote> That is what a conservative libertarian
would say. ''Protect the liberty of a certain group of people, for example
the american people. This is how the greek athenian democrarcry worked as
well. It wars a democracy for menr. But if we start thinking about liberty
to a set of people we end up with the conclusion that everyone is a
libertarian (take as a set only yourself ). That would make the use of the
word libertarian unnecessary (as we all are libertarians). Since the word
is used to differentiate between people, we end up through <SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">Reductio ad absurdum </B>that your defintion of
libertarian is wrong. </SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=sans-serif><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px">We also end up
with the conclusion that you are not a libertarian.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=sans-serif><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=sans-serif><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px">As a personal
remark, I would say that such a wrong definition of libertarian was always
used as an excuse to diminish the liberties of others.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=sans-serif><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=sans-serif><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px">(reading math..
right now)<BR></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>2011/10/17 Natalie Golovin <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net"
target=_blank>10natalie@cox.net</A>></SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
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<DIV>Nations still exist. You can be a libertarian with regards to the
rights/responsibilities/privileges/policies of your own citizens wo
extending them to the
universal</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
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color=#888888><BR><BR clear=all>
<DIV> </DIV>-- <BR><SPAN
style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px"><PRE style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"><BR></PRE><PRE style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap">Sincerely yours, </PRE><PRE style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</PRE></SPAN><BR></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
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<DIV><BR>Updates: <A href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens"
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Devin Balkind<BR>Director, Sarapis Foundation
<DIV><A href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org"
target=_blank>devin@sarapisfoundation.org</A><BR>@devinbalkind</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
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