[Solar-general] (mas jugo :)[Fwd: [Team] “peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs?]]
Juan Carlos Gentile Fagundez
jucar en hipatia.info
Sab Ago 1 01:33:54 CEST 2009
va cc para Rafael Bonifaz
To: team en fsfla.org
From: Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva en fsfla.org>
Organization: Free thinker, not speaking for FSF Latin America
Subject: [Team] “peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs?
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The Caracas Declaration brought about some significant amount of noise
from our usual friends in Argentina and elsewhere.
Hipatia's Juan Carlos Gentile didn't miss a beat before attacking us,
SOLAR's Martín Olivera disputed our legitimacy, misunderstood and
questioned the misunderstood suggestion of setting aside long-past
historical differences, and SOLAR's Diego Saravia insisted on the
agreement that he wanted us to sign with SOLAR long ago.
http://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/solar-general/2009-July/050104.html
http://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/solar-general/2009-July/050109.html
http://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/solar-general/2009-July/050126.html
My first reaction to the thought of the agreement with SOLAR was the
same as then: what's in it for us, what would the point be?
But then I started pondering that RMS has managed quite a feat in his
upcoming visit to Argentina, getting both groups to play along sort-of
together, I thought we might use this very opportunity to establish a
truce in Argentina.
Say, rather than an agreement with SOLAR, we could suggest a multi-party
agreement, with both SOLAR and Vía Libre in Argentina, FSFLA and other
FSFes that got involved in the mess, and maybe even Hipatia.
The agreement might be as simple as a commitment to mutual respect and
recognition for each others' relevance, and some wording about
encouraging, supporting and maybe even cooperating in activities that
promote software freedom.
If such an agreement comes about, it might cancel out much of the
resistance that FSFLA encounters in Argentina and Uruguay, and the
scenario may be further opened for cooperation between organizations
that have failed to cooperate because of personal issues between some of
their leaders, and we accomplish that remaining neutral rather than
taking sides.
If any of the organizations steps back, well, too bad, but it's not us
who rejected an honest attempt at cooperation for our shared goals.
Thoughts?
--
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter http://FSFLA.org/~lxoliva/
You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Gandhi
Be Free! -- http://FSFLA.org/ FSF Latin America board member
Free Software Evangelist Red Hat Brazil Compiler Engineer
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From: Richard Stallman <rms en gnu.org>
To: Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva en fsfla.org>
Cc: team en fsfla.org
Subject: Re: [Team]
“peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs?
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Say, rather than an agreement with SOLAR, we could suggest a multi-party
agreement, with both SOLAR and Vía Libre in Argentina, FSFLA and other
FSFes that got involved in the mess, and maybe even Hipatia.
The agreement might be as simple as a commitment to mutual respect and
recognition for each others' relevance, and some wording about
encouraging, supporting and maybe even cooperating in activities that
promote software freedom.
It seems like a good idea to try. But I suggest trying first for
just SOLAR and FSF-LA. Trying to convince SOLAR and Via Libre to
bury the hatchet may be too difficult.
When Spanish is written in anger, it tends to leave gaps which normal
speakers can fill in, but I can't. I expect I would find it very
difficult to read and understand their postings. So I don't plan to
try to read it on my own.
What grounds did they give for their attack? Are there any specific
points they made that I should know about in order to understand the
situation?
Please do consider their points to see if any is partly valid
and might suggest an improvement for FSF-LA.
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To: rms en gnu.org
From: Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva en fsfla.org>
Organization: Free thinker, not speaking for FSF Latin America
Cc: team en fsfla.org
Subject: Re: [Team]
“peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs?
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On Jul 29, 2009, Richard Stallman <rms en gnu.org> wrote:
> What grounds did they give for their attack?
Historical artifacts of the way FSFLA was established. Alleged
discussions and dissentions about creating an FSF in the region, and how
it should be arranged, that predate by years my involvement with FSFLA.
Legacy of members long left, guilt by association, and closed structure.
Lots of distrust, focus on the issue of your canceled speeches for
Madres de la Plaza de Mayo, accusations that all we do is publish
uninvited announcements.
> Please do consider their points to see if any is partly valid
> and might suggest an improvement for FSF-LA.
Most of all, I think we need to do a better job communicating what we
do, so that it becomes more obvious that we are not quite as dead as
they might wish we were ;-)
They're right that our structure is not as open as an association that
anyone can join and vote, but that's as it should be. At least I don't
see any way around it.
They assume continuity which I personally dispute. How can we be held
responsible and be required to make up for things that were done before
we existed, before any of the current members joined the organization?
Even more so when all the records of “FSF de los Pampas” were erased,
and we effectively started from scratch in December 2006.
--
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter http://FSFLA.org/~lxoliva/
You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Gandhi
Be Free! -- http://FSFLA.org/ FSF Latin America board member
Free Software Evangelist Red Hat Brazil Compiler Engineer
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From: Richard Stallman <rms en gnu.org>
To: Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva en fsfla.org>
Cc: team en fsfla.org
Subject: Re: [Team]
“peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs?
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They assume continuity which I personally dispute. How can we be held
responsible and be required to make up for things that were done before
we existed, before any of the current members joined the organization?
Even more so when all the records of FSF de los Pampas were erased,
and we effectively started from scratch in December 2006.
Perhaps they do not realize that FSF LA effectively started from
scratch in December 2006.
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To: rms en gnu.org
From: Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva en fsfla.org>
Organization: Free thinker, not speaking for FSF Latin America
Cc: team en fsfla.org
Subject: Re: [Team]
“peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs?
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On Jul 30, 2009, Richard Stallman <rms en gnu.org> wrote:
> They assume continuity which I personally dispute. How can we be held
> responsible and be required to make up for things that were done before
> we existed, before any of the current members joined the organization?
> Even more so when all the records of FSF de los Pampas were erased,
> and we effectively started from scratch in December 2006.
> Perhaps they do not realize that FSF LA effectively started from
> scratch in December 2006.
Indeed. They explicitly reject this notion, claiming we inherited all
the history associated with the name, and therefore we're responsible
for making up to them for whatever other groups that used the same name,
and did to them, even before they created the organization with that
name.
It seems very insane to me, but they seem quite set on that line of
reasoning. It seems like they want so badly for someone to pay back to
them that they can't let it go of us :-(
Under this light, it was certainly a mistake to try to have some
appearance of continuity. But I'm not sure that announcing we were
starting from scratch, leaving behind even the public web site and past
annoucements and writings, would have been enough to clear up their
obsession. The name FSFLA itself is cursed, they say ;-(
--
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter http://FSFLA.org/~lxoliva/
You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Gandhi
Be Free! -- http://FSFLA.org/ FSF Latin America board member
Free Software Evangelist Red Hat Brazil Compiler Engineer
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From: Richard Stallman <rms en gnu.org>
To: Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva en fsfla.org>
Cc: team en fsfla.org
Subject: Re: [Team]
“peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs?
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It seems very insane to me, but they seem quite set on that line of
reasoning. It seems like they want so badly for someone to pay back to
them that they can't let it go of us :-(
Under this light, it was certainly a mistake to try to have some
appearance of continuity. But I'm not sure that announcing we were
starting from scratch, leaving behind even the public web site and past
annoucements and writings, would have been enough to clear up their
obsession. The name FSFLA itself is cursed, they say ;-(
Don't worry about it.
Indeed. They explicitly reject this notion, claiming we inherited all
the history associated with the name, and therefore we're responsible
for making up to them for whatever other groups that used the same name,
and did to them, even before they created the organization with that
name.
If they said this in a public message, it should be easy to show
that it not valid criticism.
But it is better just to ignore them unless a lot of others start
paying attention.
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From: Quiliro Ordóñez <quiliro en gmail.com>
To: rms en gnu.org
Cc: team en fsfla.org
Subject: Re: [Team]
“peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs?
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2009/7/30 Richard Stallman <rms en gnu.org>:
> It seems very insane to me, but they seem quite set on that line of
> reasoning. It seems like they want so badly for someone to pay back to
> them that they can't let it go of us :-(
>
> Under this light, it was certainly a mistake to try to have some
> appearance of continuity. But I'm not sure that announcing we were
> starting from scratch, leaving behind even the public web site and past
> annoucements and writings, would have been enough to clear up their
> obsession. The name FSFLA itself is cursed, they say ;-(
>
> Don't worry about it.
>
> Indeed. They explicitly reject this notion, claiming we inherited all
> the history associated with the name, and therefore we're responsible
> for making up to them for whatever other groups that used the same name,
> and did to them, even before they created the organization with that
> name.
>
> If they said this in a public message, it should be easy to show
> that it not valid criticism.
>
> But it is better just to ignore them unless a lot of others start
> paying attention.
I agree but we should make a final public anouncement portaying our
position showing a good disposition for agreement and taking into
account their concerns.
--
Saludos/Greetings
Quiliro Ordóñez
593(02)340 1517 / 593(09)821 8696
http://quiliro.wordpress.com
"Sólo cuando el último árbol esté muerto, el último río envenenado, y
el último pez atrapado, nos daremos cuenta que no se puede comer
dinero"
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From: Beatriz Busaniche <bea en vialibre.org.ar>
To: rms en gnu.org
Organization: Fundación Vía Libre
Cc: team en fsfla.org
Subject: Re: [Team]
“peace agreement” with SOLAR, Vía Libre, FSFs?
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El mié, 29-07-2009 a las 16:14 -0400, Richard Stallman escribió:
> Trying to convince SOLAR and Via Libre to
> bury the hatchet may be too difficult.
Actually, Vía Libre has unilaterally buried the hatchet years ago.
SoLAr, on the other hand, continues to publicly slander Vía Libre and
its members (with special emphasis on Fede and me) every chance they
get. And if they don't get a chance, they make one up, as it has just
happened.
So you don't need to worry about Vía Libre: we have a long track record
of not responding to aggression, no matter how uncalled for. We just
prefer to keep our distance from that particular group, because we've
been burned way too often.
My personal experience tells me that it is useless to attempt to have a
rational dialogue with SoLAr, but maybe FSFLA must learn from its own
experience.
Bea
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