[P2P-F] Crucial insights into egaliterian potential of the crypto-economy

Tue May 15 21:07:21 CEST 2018

ok, good to know

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > there are conflicts about fairness and fair rewards, which I would not
> call
> > capitalist infighting, since it based on feelings of justice ,
> reciprocity
> > etc..
> >
> > and then there are conflicts where people want more than the other, and
> use
> > market dynamics to get it,
> >
> > is that the case in the faircoin community ?
>
> Both cases, I think. This is not true of all or even a majority of the
> people. But enuf to make a difference in the atmosphere.
>
> > Michel
> >
> > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:38 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree that crypto currencies are taking off, and we know people who
> >> have made some money and are now trying to do things with it.
> >>
> >> We also see for example Fair.coop that is able to pay people because
> >> of their successful crypto currency, but it has also engendered a lot
> >> of infighting along totally capitalist principles. So I agree at least
> >> partly with Michael. Not everybody descended into competition, but
> >> enough to make the atmosphere smell of sulfur and brimstone now and
> >> then...
> >>
> >> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > there is a paradox though,
> >> >
> >> > * sovereign money is still going strong
> >> >
> >> > * complementary curriencies exist in spades, but are everywhere really
> >> > marginal
> >> >
> >> > * Crypto currencies have many problematic aspects, but they are
> >> > generating
> >> > massive investments in new infrastructures
> >> >
> >> > * we have theories of what money should be, but they are not
> implemented
> >> > ...
> >> >
> >> > in that context, taking something that seems to take root, but
> >> > transforming
> >> > it to broader egaliterian interests, seems a good strategy
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:17 PM, Michael Linton
> >> > <michael.linton at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> There's much good thinking here, but thinking still inside the old
> >> >> familiar box of asset, control, property, distribution ....
> >> >>
> >> >> So their ideas are still firmly embedded in systems of rivalrous
> >> >> competition.
> >> >>
> >> >> The ends they project can be much more easily achieved by other
> means.
> >> >> A
> >> >> few days ago on a thread about "weaponized" currencies, I wrote
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The Rivalrous and the Anti-Rivalrous | Deep Code Experiment:
> Episode 2
> >> >>> -
> >> >>> Jordan Greenhall on a roll
> >> >>>
> >> >>> STIR (2013) - the key distinction is this.  Some moneys are supposed
> >> >>> to
> >> >>> be material in nature - and so are scarce, tokens of property.
> There
> >> >>> are
> >> >>> other moneys that measure, and are not scarce at all.   Currencies
> >> >>> that are
> >> >>> based on scarcity are de facto competitive - pointed sticks at the
> >> >>> core.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> So the new crypto-currencies are most generally weaponized, and
> that's
> >> >>> no
> >> >>> country for old men like me.  My interest is in the dmz of money.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> From where they look, this is all they are going to see.  But it's
> not
> >> >> all
> >> >> there is.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:51 AM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I'd like to see a real life somewhat-populated with real people
> >> >>> example of how this is supposed to work and what this is supposed to
> >> >>> enable.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> > This article from Dick Bryan is the first one bringing it all
> >> >>> > together,
> >> >>> > giving clear criterial for p2p/commons oriented crypto
> developments,
> >> >>> > I
> >> >>> > had
> >> >>> > intuited some of them, but was not able to bring it all together
> yet
> >> >>> > as
> >> >>> > this
> >> >>> > author has:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > https://medium.com/econaut/what-is-a-crypto-economy-155bdbc4ab1d
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Some criteria to look for (via Dick Bryan):
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > 1. "Programmable organizations enable production to be organized
> in
> >> >>> > a
> >> >>> > way
> >> >>> > that makes social criteria the rationale for production; not a
> >> >>> > constraint on
> >> >>> > it."
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > [1]
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > 2. "The rise of ‘networks’ as modes of corporate organization
> breaks
> >> >>> > down
> >> >>> > the conventional means that differentiate one corporation from
> >> >>> > another
> >> >>> > and
> >> >>> > challenges the principle of ‘competition’ as the driver of
> corporate
> >> >>> > rationale. These are both issues that feature prominently in
> >> >>> > decentralized
> >> >>> > applications."
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > [2]
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > * 3. Mechanisms, like tokens, that allow surplus value to be
> >> >>> > retained
> >> >>> > by the
> >> >>> > workers, not capital.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > " Changes in the nature of work (precarization, casualization,
> >> >>> > subcontracting, the rise of the gig economy) see workers carrying
> >> >>> > greater
> >> >>> > risks and break down the attachment of work and living standards
> to
> >> >>> > employment. There is growing interest in alternative ways of
> >> >>> > organizing
> >> >>> > work." [3]
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > 4. "the real potential is cryptocurrencies as units of account: as
> >> >>> > modes of
> >> >>> > measuring economic activity that are conceived differently from
> >> >>> > those
> >> >>> > intrinsic to fiat money. Fiat money has become tied to
> conventional
> >> >>> > framings
> >> >>> > of profit and loss, income and expenditure, and a market-centred
> >> >>> > calculus.
> >> >>> > Non-fiat monies have the potential for developing new ways to
> >> >>> > calculate
> >> >>> > economic activity; ways that represent different social and
> economic
> >> >>> > values,
> >> >>> > and measure performance by criteria other than profit. Think about
> >> >>> > it
> >> >>> > for a
> >> >>> > moment. The unit of account potential signals the importance of
> the
> >> >>> > crypto
> >> >>> > economy developing ways (not a singular way, but coin-specific
> ways)
> >> >>> > of
> >> >>> > accounting and measuring the activities supported by each token.
> We
> >> >>> > see
> >> >>> > this
> >> >>> > as central to giving tokens a material basis in the crypto
> economy;
> >> >>> > not
> >> >>> > just
> >> >>> > leaving them as speculative stores of value. .... "Exchange is
> often
> >> >>> > between
> >> >>> > parties of unequal power, so mutual gain cannot be presumed. An
> >> >>> > important
> >> >>> > issue of the crypto economy is how blockchain can and cannot
> >> >>> > countermand
> >> >>> > asymmetrical power in trade. We see blockchain not facilitating
> >> >>> > frictionless
> >> >>> > markets but rather frictionless capital: distributed capital." [4]
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > --
> >> >>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >>> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-
> foundation
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> >> >>> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >>> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >> >
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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