[P2P-F] Crucial insights into egaliterian potential of the crypto-economy

Tue May 15 20:41:38 CEST 2018

hi bob,

there are conflicts about fairness and fair rewards, which I would not call
capitalist infighting, since it based on feelings of justice , reciprocity
etc..

and then there are conflicts where people want more than the other, and use
market dynamics to get it,

is that the case in the faircoin community ?

Michel

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:38 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree that crypto currencies are taking off, and we know people who
> have made some money and are now trying to do things with it.
>
> We also see for example Fair.coop that is able to pay people because
> of their successful crypto currency, but it has also engendered a lot
> of infighting along totally capitalist principles. So I agree at least
> partly with Michael. Not everybody descended into competition, but
> enough to make the atmosphere smell of sulfur and brimstone now and
> then...
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Michel Bauwens
> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > there is a paradox though,
> >
> > * sovereign money is still going strong
> >
> > * complementary curriencies exist in spades, but are everywhere really
> > marginal
> >
> > * Crypto currencies have many problematic aspects, but they are
> generating
> > massive investments in new infrastructures
> >
> > * we have theories of what money should be, but they are not implemented
> ...
> >
> > in that context, taking something that seems to take root, but
> transforming
> > it to broader egaliterian interests, seems a good strategy
> >
> > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:17 PM, Michael Linton <
> michael.linton at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> There's much good thinking here, but thinking still inside the old
> >> familiar box of asset, control, property, distribution ....
> >>
> >> So their ideas are still firmly embedded in systems of rivalrous
> >> competition.
> >>
> >> The ends they project can be much more easily achieved by other means. A
> >> few days ago on a thread about "weaponized" currencies, I wrote
> >>
> >>>
> >>> The Rivalrous and the Anti-Rivalrous | Deep Code Experiment: Episode
> 2  -
> >>> Jordan Greenhall on a roll
> >>>
> >>> STIR (2013) - the key distinction is this.  Some moneys are supposed to
> >>> be material in nature - and so are scarce, tokens of property.  There
> are
> >>> other moneys that measure, and are not scarce at all.   Currencies
> that are
> >>> based on scarcity are de facto competitive - pointed sticks at the
> core.
> >>>
> >>> So the new crypto-currencies are most generally weaponized, and that's
> no
> >>> country for old men like me.  My interest is in the dmz of money.
> >>>
> >>
> >> From where they look, this is all they are going to see.  But it's not
> all
> >> there is.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:51 AM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'd like to see a real life somewhat-populated with real people
> >>> example of how this is supposed to work and what this is supposed to
> >>> enable.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> > This article from Dick Bryan is the first one bringing it all
> together,
> >>> > giving clear criterial for p2p/commons oriented crypto developments,
> I
> >>> > had
> >>> > intuited some of them, but was not able to bring it all together yet
> as
> >>> > this
> >>> > author has:
> >>> >
> >>> > https://medium.com/econaut/what-is-a-crypto-economy-155bdbc4ab1d
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Some criteria to look for (via Dick Bryan):
> >>> >
> >>> > 1. "Programmable organizations enable production to be organized in a
> >>> > way
> >>> > that makes social criteria the rationale for production; not a
> >>> > constraint on
> >>> > it."
> >>> >
> >>> > [1]
> >>> >
> >>> > 2. "The rise of ‘networks’ as modes of corporate organization breaks
> >>> > down
> >>> > the conventional means that differentiate one corporation from
> another
> >>> > and
> >>> > challenges the principle of ‘competition’ as the driver of corporate
> >>> > rationale. These are both issues that feature prominently in
> >>> > decentralized
> >>> > applications."
> >>> >
> >>> > [2]
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > * 3. Mechanisms, like tokens, that allow surplus value to be retained
> >>> > by the
> >>> > workers, not capital.
> >>> >
> >>> > " Changes in the nature of work (precarization, casualization,
> >>> > subcontracting, the rise of the gig economy) see workers carrying
> >>> > greater
> >>> > risks and break down the attachment of work and living standards to
> >>> > employment. There is growing interest in alternative ways of
> organizing
> >>> > work." [3]
> >>> >
> >>> > 4. "the real potential is cryptocurrencies as units of account: as
> >>> > modes of
> >>> > measuring economic activity that are conceived differently from those
> >>> > intrinsic to fiat money. Fiat money has become tied to conventional
> >>> > framings
> >>> > of profit and loss, income and expenditure, and a market-centred
> >>> > calculus.
> >>> > Non-fiat monies have the potential for developing new ways to
> calculate
> >>> > economic activity; ways that represent different social and economic
> >>> > values,
> >>> > and measure performance by criteria other than profit. Think about it
> >>> > for a
> >>> > moment. The unit of account potential signals the importance of the
> >>> > crypto
> >>> > economy developing ways (not a singular way, but coin-specific ways)
> of
> >>> > accounting and measuring the activities supported by each token. We
> see
> >>> > this
> >>> > as central to giving tokens a material basis in the crypto economy;
> not
> >>> > just
> >>> > leaving them as speculative stores of value. .... "Exchange is often
> >>> > between
> >>> > parties of unequal power, so mutual gain cannot be presumed. An
> >>> > important
> >>> > issue of the crypto economy is how blockchain can and cannot
> >>> > countermand
> >>> > asymmetrical power in trade. We see blockchain not facilitating
> >>> > frictionless
> >>> > markets but rather frictionless capital: distributed capital." [4]
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >>> >
> >>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >>> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >>> >
> >>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens
> ;
> >>> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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