[P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] The class structure of the "solidarity economy" or any alternative community

Sun Aug 14 07:55:46 CEST 2016

Yes I didn't mean to imply a dichotomy between west and others, just that
west child rearing culture is only one I'm familiar with.

On Aug 14, 2016 4:41 AM, "Michel Bauwens" <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:

> Dear Anna,
>
> are you familiar with the works of Wilhelm Reich at all .. some
> interesting hypotheses in his work which echo what you are saying
>
> and are you familiar with the Institute for Psycho-History ?
>
> Their history of child abuse is amazing, but also interesting because it
> breaks down the dichotomy between, the west is bad and based on domination
> vs the rest where all is good,
>
> see http://www.primal-page.com/psyhis.htm
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 2:12 AM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I find this discussion very interesting, though haven't had time yet to
>> respond.
>>
>> "I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of
>> your experiences."
>>
>>
>> The traits you are describing run deeper than class, though they do have
>> something to do with how we judge some classes better than others. So eg
>> working class is more honest, more down to earth, more on the same level,
>> upper class more arrogant, more rigid, more bigoted. But we also know these
>> are caricatures, and easily reversed in practice.
>>
>> I think what is here being described has to do with 'morality', something
>> we rarely talk about because it borders on religion. Peer to peer attracts
>> us because it is nearer to 'all of us being equal in the eyes of God'. This
>> has nothing to do with a belief in God, but something to do with what Peter
>> describes as "a dialectical and holistic disposition toward global
>> social emancipation".
>>
>> This also connects with Orsan's concern that people who appear to be 'on
>> our side' are being used/funded by people with different intentions.
>>
>> I've recently been reading neurobiologist Darcia Narvaez book
>> 'Neurobiology and the Development of Morality'. https://www.goodrea
>> ds.com/book/show/18378036-neurobiology-and-the-developme
>> nt-of-human-morality
>>
>> What is clear from her research is that if a baby's needs are not met, eg
>> if it is left to cry itself to sleep, which is a common practice in many
>> western cultures, it is imprinted with the experience of a hostile world,
>> which can affect its development and produce mental problems such as
>> anxiety and depression later in life. The importance of the parent child
>> bond in mitigating such experiences, and the resources that a baby brings
>> with it, inherited and its own personality, all blend to produce a person's
>> identity, which as you say, may be changed with difficulty.
>>
>> There is a growing movement which sees the necessity of welcoming the
>> newborn with positive experiences, to counteract what appears to be the
>> 'natural' tendency towards aggression and insecurity in our culture.
>> Narvaez makes it clear that this needs to be a community effort, it cannot
>> be done alone.
>>
>> See the 20 presenters at the upcoming conference at Findhorn, Healthy
>> Birth, Healthy Earth.  https://hbhe.co/presenters/
>>
>> Anna
>>
>> On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:44, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:51 AM, peter waterman
>> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Are these classes a cause of their behaviour or a result thereof?
>>
>>
>> At least related, I think.
>>
>> And, in
>>
>> any case, are these 'classes' or 'identities'? I mean in any conventional
>>
>> definition of classes.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, it's more complicated. If you believe in intersectionality in
>> the bell hooks sense (and I do) and in relationships of domination vs
>> relationships of partnership as described recently in this list (and I
>> do), then in the capitalist system you got polarities of domination
>> and subordination around gender, wealth and relations of production,
>> and culture/race.
>>
>> People's individual personalities are formed in some interacting
>> combination of whichever positions in the two or three of those poles
>> they were enculturated in.
>>
>> And it gets even more complicated than that.
>>
>> I'm just trying to account for some phenomena in some way that is
>> discussable without writing a book.
>>
>> Secondly, what DO you do?
>>
>>
>> http://mikorizal.org
>>
>> Maybe I would either belong to or become a member
>>
>> of the preferred class.
>>
>>
>> I'm not pointing fingers.
>>
>> I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of
>> your experiences. You can consciously change some of them through
>> struggle from and social practice with your comrades, but it ain't
>> easy.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:44 AM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm trying to connect to what I think I perceive in some of Orsan's
>>
>> posts. This is a different angle on what Orsan has been talking about,
>>
>> but I think it is connected and I think the subject line might be
>>
>> closer to the essence.
>>
>>
>> We have recent experience with very different groups that we have
>>
>> worked with in our "solidarity economy" software experiments. None of
>>
>> which shall be named. Yet.
>>
>>
>> Some people in some groups have this sense of entitlement, as if we
>>
>> are their employees or they are our customer, rather than us all being
>>
>> peers in an open source project.
>>
>>
>> They complain a lot. Occasionally they offer helpful suggestions, but
>>
>> mostly they like to complain. Sometimes when they do make suggestions,
>>
>> they are way beyond anything that could be implemented, and if
>>
>> implemented, they would not be able to use the results because the
>>
>> results would be beyond their competence.
>>
>>
>> They are arrogant. They assume they our intellectual superiors. They
>>
>> claim to have abilities that in subsequent events they fail miserably
>>
>> to demonstrate.
>>
>>
>> We meet other groups where people claim to want to collaborate but
>>
>> fail to do so. Often they are credentialed academics, and we are not.
>>
>> (I don't even have a college degree. The horror!) They want to publish
>>
>> papers in proprietary journals which will advance their careers. We
>>
>> are not helpful in that pursuit. They also assume they are our
>>
>> intellectual superiors.
>>
>>
>> We work with other groups who do not feel so entitled. Who are eager
>>
>> to collaborate. Who jump in and work on the software. Who not only
>>
>> suggest improvements to the software, they jump in and make the
>>
>> improvements themselves! What a concept! Like a real open source
>>
>> project!
>>
>>
>> It is so nice. Really.
>>
>>
>> I think we have class differences at work here. What do you think?
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Click here for Peter's recent writings
>>
>>
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>
>
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