[P2P-F] [P2P-es] P2P dual language - en dos idiomas

Tue Jul 22 10:30:49 CEST 2014

dear Orsan,

I don't disagree with your characterisation of the rifkin/stieglitz
positioning, but I have perhaps a different view on 'class' or social
alliances,

certainly in the west, there is a clear process of the dwindling of the
industrial working class (between 17 and 23% of the european working
population); a clear de-proletarisation (both through access to means of
production, and through non-salaried precarisation) but the growth of a
networked knowledge-based working class ...but this class is multi-layered
and very flexible in its social conditions: it can be salaried one day,
freelancing the other, in start-up mode, etc .. a substantial minority of
this 'class' is both allied to commonsproducing communities and
enterpreneurial ..

so to be clear: if traditional labour is dwindling, the whole classic
debate about class alliances led by the working class become very
problematic .. and: if the precarious knowledge labour class is facing
changeable social conditions which include enterpreneurialism, then a
hostility to it is equally problematic

so my approach is to look for a broad coalition, not for a violent social
transformation, but for the creation of commons-friendly state and private
structures, that allow for a deep autonomisation of civil society and
ethical enterpreneurship

the coalition I propose entails: the precarious knowledge workers, and
their digital culture political expressions (pirates, platform parties,
digital commons orientation); what remains of the govt'al and industrial
working class (the new transformative left parties like syriza, podemos,
i..e. industrial commons); the greens (older knowledge working class,
natural commons orientation), and the progressive enterpreneurial forces
(alternativet).

I do not call for a class alliance with elite forces (as hardt and negri
suggested we do), nor with radical right forces who are also against big
government and big banks (the nader approach), but I do call for an
alliance with those that want to reform the market dynamics.

In this sense, I don't see rifkin/stieglitz with a vision of a half empty
glass, but as half-full, as individuals who, despite their elite
affiliations, represent steps in the right direction. We are not talking
here about alliances with right wing parties, we are talking about a
critical but positive interpretation of what their emergence means.

when you mention kautsky and lenin ... do you know that kautsky and the SD
members voted against the war, but they were over-ruled by the trade union
faction of their party

so I suggest a third position, that of rosa luxemburg, who strongly warned
lenin against relying on only one governance form, that of the soviets, and
suggested keeping the parliament and representative institutions as a
counterweight ..

lenin ended up outlawing all political forces but his own, preparing the
emergence of Stalinism .. was he really right ?

of course we can be critical of rifkin/stieglizt and stress their
insufficiencies, but that doesn't mean that at this stage, it is useful or
productive to seem them as enemies ; in my understanding, they both support
democratisation of politics and the ethicalisation of economics, goals
which are in alignment with my own goals ..

I'm in favour to combine a radical agenda of structural transformation,
with an ongoing co-constructive and meliorist politics based on pragmatic
alliances around common goals,

that doesn't mean working with everyone, you will notice that I don't even
mention social-democrats nor the right parties in my proposal for a
coalition of the commons

I'm recently thinking about how to conceive of class alliance parties, like
the christian democrats .. (I know they are very right wing in the
netherlands, but not so in belgium, where they have progressive wings) ...
the reason is that social-catholic movements are reacting very positively
to p2p ideas

Michel

On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Örsan Şenalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is Democracy Now talking with Stiglizt, Michel just shared also
> on facebook:
>
> http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/17/nobel_economist_joseph_stiglitz_hails_new
> listening Stiglizt, under the light of Warks' chapter on class, as
> well as abstraction and education (Stiglitz's new book's title is
> about building a learning society), reminded me the Kautsky-Lenin
> debate on ultra-imperialism. Kautsk, as you may know, was infamously
> defending the thesis of imperialism being policy, and he highlighted
> the 'peace prone' nature of the ultra capitalists operating world wide
> their imperialist policies. Therefore their rule could have been more
> peaceful for all, since it needed secure financial environments, so
> even workers and other dominated/ruled classes would find that a
> preferred situation. Lenin of course attacked him fiercely, doing so
> he also developed and promoted his own counter thesis saying that
> imperialism was structurally and objectively new stage in the
> historical and material development path of capitalist mode of
> production. Very briefly after Kautsky's put forward his thesis the
> world war started, so debate ended there for a moment.
>
> To be clear, I do not compare Michel's position on transition with
> Kautksy at all, yet there are links to look at. So, instead I like to
> identify and share a vital strategical pattern that occurs in the
> history of intra-class warfare. Which gets worse in times of organic
> or terminal crises followed by geographical power shifts (Arrighi
> tells in detail of this).
>
> The fact that in times of big crisis like this one, historically
> founded political positions of capitalist class fractions gets, and
> appears very complicated. Because of the transnational nature of the
> struggles taking place and political elite interference. So that,
> conservative old-boys from one country, that are trying to prevent the
> existing hierarchies and statue-quo at the global level could engage
> with the liberal new comers that tries to takeover the commanding
> heights on the ruling class ladder in one national context. And vice e
> verse, globally operating new giants, could enter alliances with
> traditional elite being about to dispossess from power and wealth in
> his garbage. At every national context states loses relativity and
> loses its 'democratic' legitimacy.
>
> I agree with Wark on that, today there is a newly emerging class
> fraction (he calls Vectoral class -around Silicon Valley like spaces
> and Google, Facebook, Twitter kind of corporate entities), that
> threatens the old boys industrialist capitalists every where and in
> every domain/sector. Since they are increasingly able to dis-connect
> from their rivals' networks and re-connect to its lower level
> valorization cycles, which gives this class structural advantages.
> However they are not holding yet stronger positions in the state(s).
> Sending Google's Eric Schimit from Egypt to South Korea for instance,
> is about getting hold on power in states to be emerged after 'velvet
> revolutions'.. so this is kind of a process we see everywhere .
>
> Now, listening Rifkin's and Stiglizt's redefined and rewritten
> positions, one can clearly see their move-away from the new-green
> keynesianism concept to the distributed-netarchical (end of-)
> capitalism discourse. Rifkin takes the role of linking up with the
> vectoral class interest, and Stiglitz interlocks keynesian liberals'
> interest resulting in a syntetic abstraction. However the
> approximation of Al Gore-Soros-Clinton-Gates line of liberal
> transnational capitalist class fractions to the vectoral class
> position only signifies the letter's increasing power and formers
> decline. Conservatives after moving in with 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq,
> Libya, Syria, .... gained ground by 'real politization' of the global
> chess board. The competition between Facebook, Google, Apple so on has
> been giving mixed signals about their choice of alignment yet the
> balance is by now by far slided to the direction of liberal capital
> and vectoral capital's marriage (fuse / and political alliances). The
> nature of the PRISM, is thoughtful in this sense.
>
> This picture needs to be analysed for other countries, as well as
> transnational interactions forming the global level: where Chinese, or
> BRICs in general are going, how and which partnerships, interlocking
> directories so on are operating along these intra-ruling class
> struggles implies for the general balance between liberal-vectoral
> class alliance against conservative old-boys, that are pushing and
> being pushed to launch corrective-wars every where.
> As Kautsk's position is proven to be wrong, alignment of progressive
> left forces would push the war prone conservatives to the corner and
> make the global war real, in my opinion. Although one might suggest it
> didn't work, because it didn't happen or it was too late, or the
> conditions today are different...  I am not sure on that.
>
> In essence Kautsky's idea bear the possible alliances with emerging
> financial capital -as the most liberal and pacific ruling class
> fraction, which was obvious and repeated in the work of Negri for
> instance. And many progressive NGOs and left alliances today openly
> pursue this politics.
>
> However scary is the upcoming wars, and disasters, for the upper
> classes its destruction was and always have been far from higher
> classes, the elite so on. To form as broader as possible and as
> inclusive as (also from higher levels, different ideological sphares)
> alliance, we do not need to engage in these kind of ruling class
> driven thinkers and their thinking, i believe. It is unnecessary. Yet
> I agree that it is essentially important to follow, understand and
> engage with the emerging discourse, share and openly reflect about
> these, while we assertively criticise them.
>
> Another practical  problematic, would be -much more destructive to
> such valuable efforts and networking- are the secret and suspicious
> networking and cooptation activities pursued by the netarchical
> environment these people grew out. So getting in touch with one of
> such elite, would leave very difficult to restore conspiracies dirt on
> anybody.
>
> just continuing with the brain storming..
>
>
>
>
> On 21 July 2014 13:21, Örsan Şenalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes thanks Michel for the reply,
> >
> > Daniel also replied to Spanish list, and Bernardo translated and sent
> > it to me. Since the two language and two list solution is producing
> > more confusion I will prefer just to concentrate on English discussion
> > and try to make productive contribution. The thing is, I do agree with
> > the fact that there were really good names from critical world, yet
> > people like Stiglitz, or Rifkin,..  I return these guys, organic
> > intellectuals of the ruling classes, at the end..
> >
> > It was in my mind for a long time, yet after these discussion I
> > returned to read about the partner state (also other approaches like
> > bio regional state) approach and your interpretation of it. After
> > initial scanning, I have come to an agreement with Kevin that,
> > partner state is a kind of process and project with an objective of
> > dissolution of political-social power into civil society in time.
> > http://p2pfoundation.net/Partner_State
> > since it is envisaged and co-argued -with V.Kostakis- openly, and also
> > your argument have been openly talking about and taking into account
> > the class positions, when thinking of the transition(s) to happen.
> >
> > In this sense, I find the findings and papers from Ecuador important
> > not only for and in Ecuador contest, but in the broader context of
> > developing perspectives on and understanding of 'transition' in
> > networked age. This is one thing.
> >
> > And since Ecuadorian state is one of the existing forms of really
> > existing states, the fate of the practical implementation of this
> > projects does not tell essentially about the ideas towards the
> > envisaged (optional) transition processes themselves. this is the
> > second thing.
> >
> > May be I was the only one, yet I think it is really important, for all
> > who like to contribute meaningfully to this discussion to read those
> > relevant texts as the ones here online:
> > http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:P2P_State_Approaches
> > or an earlier text:
> >
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-basic-orientation-of-p2p-theory-towards-societal-reform-transforming-civil-society-the-private-and-the-state/2011/07/12
> >
> > To go beyond the critics of who and how was the flok project
> > implemented -so getting rid of an exchange contained with rumour kind
> > of soft-data. Then we could elaborate a stronger debate drawing more
> > insights out of the Ecuadorian experience. That can be re-thought and
> > make impact somewhere else as well.
> >
> > My problems with the framework of Partner State and 'transition'
> > projections, although the Michel and Kostakis' analyses takes the
> > different forms of state and class struggle seriously, they do not
> > deliver deeper perspective or elaboration (yet) on the role of intra
> > and inter class struggles currently taking place in the changing
> > complex global-geographical political economy framework, the
> > historical structure so to speak, that is making an ultimate impact on
> > the agency and politics at the moment.
> >
> > People like Rifkin and Stizglitz are too close to evil, and swimming
> > in the wealth. Check this recent Alternet article out about the
> > findings of a research on a..holes:
> >
> >
> http://www.alternet.org/culture/ahole-effect-what-wealth-does-brain?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark
> >
> > may be one can insist that exceptions are there so we can get them in
> > broader alliance for commons.. but those who are hired by the ruling
> > elite, and accepting to serve them personally, or becoming the head of
> > an institution like IMF, can not be on the side of labour or farmers,
> > or good people, nor the commons. I found Mckenzie Wark's analysis on
> > verctoral class, very useful in this sense:
> > https://www.academia.edu/182789/A_Hacker_Manifesto
> > as well as his alternative broader alliance of workers, farmers, and
> hackers.
> >
> > In case we think of a broader alliance at the top, that make sense to
> > talk to people like Rifkin and Stiglizt -even directly with Soros and
> > Eric Schmit.
> >
> > Yet then one has to forget about the formation of a real grassroots
> alliance.
> >
> > Orsan
> >
> >
> > On 19 July 2014 06:29, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> >> hi Orsan,
> >>
> >> not sure who exactly the original idea came from, but the high level
> expert
> >> group and the names came to me via Carlos Prieto,
> >>
> >> I do not share the qualms about working with someone like Stiglitz,
> because
> >> in the context in which we are working, high level moderate progressive
> >> economist do lend legitimacy to proposals and projects
> >>
> >> broad social change needs broad coalitions and stiglizs is in my view
> at the
> >> side of the labour and social movements
> >>
> >> in the end this high level group, which would also have included
> >> post-autonomistts like andrea fumagally etc ..,  never got funded nor
> >> materialized
> >>
> >> Michel
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Orsan Senalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It May sound off the track, yet while I was checking FLOK management
> page,
> >>> I did see list of experts and advisors and who suggested them. I saw
> that
> >>> Daniel Vasquez did recommend as macro economic advisor famous ex head
> of
> >>> IMF, later it's self-critical economist!! Can anyone confirm and
> explain
> >>> what is the logic of appointing Joseph Stiglitz as an high level
> expert and
> >>> advisor to a project like this, aiming Ecuador's transition to a FLOK
> >>> society? For me these are kind of really problematic co-optative steps
> needs
> >>> to be avoided and criticized. I have been waiting and waiting from
> Bernardo,
> >>> Xabier and Daniel any kind of reaction or self-reflexive report, noting
> >>> heard anything or am not yet aware of. Than I started to get
> suspicious are
> >>> there  Conscious steps taken and are we being pulled in alternative
> p2p -
> >>> commons Keynesian project? So partner state can be sounding very nice
> >>> theory, yet at the end it can turn into they are state, some of us
> partners
> >>> and business goes usual for the billions, and the commons.. What kind
> of
> >>> consciousness and check and balance we will be able to build. Another
> >>> initiative I found about is Global Marshall Plan initiative to which
> some of
> >>> out dear friends got involved, under the UN framework promoting An
> idea of
> >>> Commons Charters instead of Millennium Goals, which was scheduled to
> 2015. I
> >>> again am not against involvement and engagement with the state to open,
> >>> transform, and dissolve it from bottom to up, yet with giant capitalist
> >>> partners like al gore, bill gates, bono, Soros, elite groups like club
> of
> >>> Rome, club of Budapest, ... A child can guess where would the game end
> up!
> >>> Do not want to judgmental but we have seen this movie many times,
> perfect
> >>> ideas and hypotheses, communism itself may easily be spoiled. P2p and
> >>> commons should be protected carefully...
> >>> Orsan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > On 18 Jul 2014, at 04:23, willi uebelherr <willi.uebelherr at gmail.com
> >
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Am 7/17/2014 1:33 PM, schrieb Bernardo Gutiérrez:
> >>> >> Estimado Willi
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Gracias por tu aporte. El idioma de la lista p2p-es es el español,
> por
> >>> >> lo
> >>> >> que no es buena idea "to bring this two language spaces together"
> >>> >> imponiendo el inglés, como no lo es enviar el mismo mail a listas
> con
> >>> >> diferentes idiomas. Tú mismo criticaste a los que escribían en
> inglés a
> >>> >> las
> >>> >> listas de FLOK. Lo correcto es enviarlo a diferentes listas, cada
> una
> >>> >> con
> >>> >> su idioma, o escribir en todos los idiomas para todas
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Un abrazo
> >>> >> Bernardo
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Dear Willi
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Thanks for your comment. The commom language of p2p-es is Spanish,
> so I
> >>> >> think it is not a good idea "to bring this two language spaces
> >>> >> together"
> >>> >> imposing English, as it is not a good practice to send the same mail
> >>> >> with
> >>> >> just one language to different lists. You were  critic with those
> who
> >>> >> wrote
> >>> >> in English in FLOK lists. The proper could be to send the message in
> >>> >> different languages to different lists or to write in both languages
> >>> >> and
> >>> >> send the message
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Best
> >>> >> Bernardo
> >>> >
> >>> > Dear friends,
> >>> >
> >>> > this is a very clear and correct position. I think, the writers
> write in
> >>> > two languages, if they addressed the two language spaces. Normally
> it is
> >>> > enough to use google translation between english and spanish to
> >>> > understand. A good english we can translate and understand. A good
> >>> > spanish also. (not for me, because my english is very bad).
> >>> >
> >>> > The other is our interest to distribute some texts from one language
> >>> > space to the other. We need the support from this people, they speak
> >>> > both languages.
> >>> >
> >>> > many greetings, willi
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Querid at s amig at s,
> >>> >
> >>> > esta es una posición muy clara y correcta. Creo que, los escritores
> >>> > escriben en dos idiomas, si se dirigían los dos espacios
> lingüísticos.
> >>> > Normalmente es suficiente con utilizar traducción de Google entre
> Inglés
> >>> > y español para entender. Un buen Inglés podemos traducir y entender.
> Un
> >>> > buen español también. (no para mí, porque mi inglés es muy malo).
> >>> >
> >>> > El otro es nuestro interés para distribuir algunos de los textos de
> un
> >>> > espacio idioma a otro. Necesitamos el apoyo de este pueblo, hablan
> los
> >>> > dos idiomas.
> >>> >
> >>> > Muchas saludas, willi
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> >>> > http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> >>> > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Please note an intrusion wiped out my inbox on February 8; I have no
> record
> >> of previous communication, proposals, etc ..
> >>
> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >>
> >> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >>
> >> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>

-- 
*Please note an intrusion wiped out my inbox on February 8; I have no
record of previous communication, proposals, etc ..*

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
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