[P2P-F] debate with bob haugen and lynn foster on mutual coordination economics

Wed Aug 13 06:22:39 CEST 2014

Bob / lynn:

I wrote an article about a head design for software for a different
economic system which you can read here if you are interested in such
things and have a lot of time on your hands:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ewf9k1H7mBJEd8wjL0ZIJWU4dkoqLyDJVqhf3L1R3Fo/edit?usp=sharing
(but I don't think that is necessary to think about the question).

Anyway, Michel wrote this response to a section of the article:
"All these proposals require a social force willing to implement them.
Peer producers , and their livelyhood organisations, are the only ones
that can realistically achieve any proposal. There will be no phase
transition without the prior establishment of a proto-mode of
production and a social subject that is willing to construct and fight
for such alternatives. I personally believe that
'labour-within-capital" can no longer be that subject, but the people
who are actively constructing a new mode of value creation and
distribution, can. This is why we need coops that do not function
within capital, but within the accumulation of the commons."

I commented:
"I think this would be an interesting related subject for another
discussion. You might be short-changing 'labor-within-capital'. The
socialization of labor has included all of the P2P supply chain
coordination elements from the 1990's onward, and a much deeper
experience with robotification and what it all means than the various
OSHW experiments. We were looking for a video of a speech by a member
of a left workers organization in Detroit, where he reflected on his
own changes of consciousness from the 1970's until now based on the
changes in the auto industry, but blip.tv pulled it down. If we get
into that discussion, we'll see how much we can recreate from memory."

And Michel replied:
" I think it is very important to make the distinction between the first
phase of networking, pre-internet, which were reserved for corporations,
and which led to globalization and a profound re=organization of the
supply-chains . but still entirely within capital-labour logics, AND on the
other hand, the 2nd phase of civic networking, which only started in the
mid-nineties and led to massive amounts of social peer production, outside
of the capital-labour relationship, where the emergence of peer producers /
commoners is coupled to a massive deproletarisation of workers and a
re-crafting (return to craft conditions) of their social conditions. One
out of three workers will be outside the labor-with-wage condition by 2020."

-- 
*Please note an intrusion wiped out my inbox on February 8; I have no
record of previous communication, proposals, etc ..*

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