[P2P-F] Fw: Can "Printing" Money Save Economies? The Answer, Yes, and No....

Mon Sep 26 20:43:06 CEST 2011

I'll check it out, but I only have read pieces of Ellen's work ...

On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 12:53 AM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:

> Michel, I will dig up my review of her book and send it to you. Meanwhile,
> consider Jaimie Walton's review at
> http://www.monetary.org/review-of-ellen-browns-the-web-of-debt/2010/12
>
> Walton's criticism is close to my analysis. Yes, this a serious process
> Walton's analysis is a tight analysis and it is posted by the American
> Monetary Institute, which is well outside of the MMT zone. Once you have
> Walton's article come back and we can discuss it. It may take awhile to
> understand that it is neo-classical economics which is a cult. Looking
>  from the outside it is easy to understand how MMT might be considered to
> be a cult. However, in exploring MMT/functional finance you will find that
> its standards of discourse are on a par with the best of scientific
> discourses. I will respond more fully to your concerns. To the ordinary
> citizen her material may seem provocative and vaguely progressive, and it
> is not, particularly not in a close analysis. \\
>
> when you are ready I will respond further. Tadit
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:00:39 -0400, Michel Bauwens
> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>
> > your making a serious accusation here, what evidence do you have that
> > Ellen
> > Brown does not simply disagree, but is actually funded for
> > disinformation by
> > the banking cartel ?
> >
> > In fact, all the evidence is that they would hate her book, which is an
> > argument for the sovereign creation of money and against debt-based
> > currency
> > creation,
> >
> > the attacks against anyone who disagrees, such as Krugman, Stiglizt,
> > Brown
> > etc .. gives the impression that MMT behaves more like a cult than to
> > engage
> > in open and peer-based debate ..
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 7:55 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Please, excuse, and some of the text is partial and misleading. This
> >> objection should not be taken in an ad hominen intent. The British had
> >> at
> >> least one printing press operating on a ship in the New York harbor
> >> busily
> >> counterfeiting the Continentals and then putting them into circulation.
> >> So
> >> no, the Continental Congress's use of the Continentals did not produce
> >> inflation, but the British counterfeiting operation did. Dys-information
> >> regarding monetary practices and history is a well established tactic
> >> and
> >> it usually arrives in the form of Pop-economics funded by the banking
> >> cartel to preserve their monopolistic franchise. Brown is a popular and
> >> clear example of this process. The differences between the monetary
> >> policies of the US Union as compared to the monetary policies of the
> >> Southern Confederacy is a much better example. Generally Zarlenga's book
> >> can serve as an antidote. I believe that Abba Lerner did extensive
> >> research into the details of the economics of the US Confederacy which
> >> as
> >> a confederacy was not even a sovereignty based process, and actually
> >> close
> >> to the present EMU process. So much for looking into history to find
> >> more
> >> than a simple reflection of present presumptions.
> >>
> >> Regarding the "legality" of sovereign governments printing their own
> >> currency it is actually the standard, except that we have been led to
> >> believe that it is the franchise of privately owned banking cartel is
> >> the
> >> only "real" and accepted process, which is straight away false. No, it
> >> is
> >> not a legitimate subject of research, unless the details of MMT are
> >> declared by conflation and misrepresentation to be falsified, or if the
> >> intent is to sustain the privatized franchise or to re-invent MMT under
> >> a
> >> different branding. Zimbabwe is frequently pulled out as a bad example
> >> of
> >> the use of the sovereign use of currency, while simultaneously ignoring
> >> the massive incompetence and self dealing of that government. If there
> >> is
> >> an interest in a different slant on the hyper-inflation
> >> hyper-ventilation
> >> try this article.
> >>
> >> http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/233
> >>
> >> While I appreciate in principle the P2P model deeply, it has to involve
> >> some level of rigorous discourse and examination. Despite the popularity
> >> of Ellen Brown, her material continues to play to a strategy of
> >> persuasion
> >> rather than analysis based upon informing facts, practices, and
> >> history. I
> >> did a close review of her "Money As Debt" for the AMI at one point and
> >> it
> >> is primarily a product of persuasion, not scientific in any serious
> >> sense.
> >> Her personal history was that previously she, as an attorney,
> >> specialized
> >> in writing briefs. That process boils down to picking a conclusion and a
> >> few key premises and then finding precedents which appear to validate
> >> the
> >> targeted conclusions. It is a rhetorical process to win an argument, and
> >> has little to do with on the ground history of facts. At one point
> >> Randall
> >> Wray offered to tutor Brown when she passed through Kansas City. Mo.
> >> promoting her book and self. She declined by not responding at all. This
> >> is how default paradigms get reproduced in an seemingly endless process.
> >>
> >> Tadit
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:07:04 -0400, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----- Forwarded Message -----
> >> > From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
> >> > To: "dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
> >> > Sent: Monday, 26 September 2011, 12:54
> >> > Subject: Can "Printing" Monye Save Economies?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > If for whatever reasons governments cannot pay off their debts one way
> >> > of achieving economic stability is to "print" it en masse!! This is
> >> not
> >> > ofcourse a good debt concellation/reduction plan (!) as it could lead
> >> to
> >> > serious inflation, or even hyperinflation.....but it can work..if not
> >> > too much money is created by governments. Something like this could
> >> > ultimately save the Euro if it occurs on a large enough scale.
> >> >
> >> > In pre-revolutionary America colonists found it very difficult to
> >> raise
> >> > funds in the various States they created. So, they resorted to the
> >> > printing press. Quite often this worked but not always (ref. Ellen
> >> > Brown/Web of Debt). Infact, the American War of Independence was
> >> funded
> >> > by printing money. This money was known as the Continentals but it
> >> > ultimately lead to serious inflation. However, it is claimed that the
> >> > Brits had been "flooding" the money supply with fake copies. The same
> >> > claim was also made about the Assignats created during the French
> >> > Revolution (ref. Zarlenga, and his key book on money). The American
> >> > Civil War was funded by Lincoln with his Greenbacks notes created by
> >> the
> >> > then existing government. This did not lead serious inflation as far
> >> as
> >> > we know...The Russian Revolution was largely funded in a like manner
> >> > though there is some talk about some capital being borrowed by private
> >> > foreign commercial banks.
> >> >
> >> > It appears too that Hitlers miracle economic "revolution" leading to
> >> WII
> >> > was due to simply printing money but with strong price controls in
> >> place
> >> > on many products. Apparently, the same goes for the funding of the
> >> > Vietnam War when President Johnson admitted that it could not be
> >> > financed by taxation because the war was  so unpopular .......This is
> >> a
> >> > big subject, and no doubt other examples have not been included here
> >> > (notably Zimbabwe!!).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > There are a number of articles about Hitler "printing" money on the
> >> > internet along with the Vietnam War (plus the  Assignats, Greenbacks,
> >> et
> >> > cetera, et cetera).  As far as I understand it governments cannot
> >> > legally create money electronically en direct into  the economy.
> >> > However, it is not fully  clear whether they can still print it
> >> > "legally". To very limitedextent this occurs but if huge amounts were
> >> > to  be involved this might require somekind of legal arrangement. This
> >> > is still subject to research.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> http://www.google.co.uk/#pq=hitler+and+monetary+reform&hl=en&sugexp=tsh&cp=19&gs_id=20&xhr=t&q=hitler+prints+money&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=hitler+prints+money&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=92910b6b81417d8f&biw=1024&bih=585
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> http://www.google.co.uk/#pq=hitler+prints+money&hl=en&sugexp=tsh&cp=40&gs_id=3f&xhr=t&q=vietnam+president+johnson+printing+print+money&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=vietnam+president+johnson+printing+print+money&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=92910b6b81417d8f&biw=1024&bih=585
> >>
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