I'll check it out, but I only have read pieces of Ellen's work ...<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 12:53 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Michel, I will dig up my review of her book and send it to you. Meanwhile,<br>
consider Jaimie Walton's review at<br>
<a href="http://www.monetary.org/review-of-ellen-browns-the-web-of-debt/2010/12" target="_blank">http://www.monetary.org/review-of-ellen-browns-the-web-of-debt/2010/12</a><br>
<br>
Walton's criticism is close to my analysis. Yes, this a serious process<br>
Walton's analysis is a tight analysis and it is posted by the American<br>
Monetary Institute, which is well outside of the MMT zone. Once you have<br>
Walton's article come back and we can discuss it. It may take awhile to<br>
understand that it is neo-classical economics which is a cult. Looking<br>
�from the outside it is easy to understand how MMT might be considered to<br>
be a cult. However, in exploring MMT/functional finance you will find that<br>
its standards of discourse are on a par with the best of scientific<br>
discourses. I will respond more fully to your concerns. To the ordinary<br>
citizen her material may seem provocative and vaguely progressive, and it<br>
is not, particularly not in a close analysis. \\<br>
<br>
when you are ready I will respond further. Tadit<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:00:39 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>
<<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> your making a serious accusation here, what evidence do you have that<br>
> Ellen<br>
> Brown does not simply disagree, but is actually funded for<br>
> disinformation by<br>
> the banking cartel ?<br>
><br>
> In fact, all the evidence is that they would hate her book, which is an<br>
> argument for the sovereign creation of money and against debt-based<br>
> currency<br>
> creation,<br>
><br>
> the attacks against anyone who disagrees, such as Krugman, Stiglizt,<br>
> Brown<br>
> etc .. gives the impression that MMT behaves more like a cult than to<br>
> engage<br>
> in open and peer-based debate ..<br>
><br>
> Michel<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 7:55 PM, <<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Please, excuse, and some of the text is partial and misleading. This<br>
>> objection should not be taken in an ad hominen intent. The British had<br>
>> at<br>
>> least one printing press operating on a ship in the New York harbor<br>
>> busily<br>
>> counterfeiting the Continentals and then putting them into circulation.<br>
>> So<br>
>> no, the Continental Congress's use of the Continentals did not produce<br>
>> inflation, but the British counterfeiting operation did. Dys-information<br>
>> regarding monetary practices and history is a well established tactic<br>
>> and<br>
>> it usually arrives in the form of Pop-economics funded by the banking<br>
>> cartel to preserve their monopolistic franchise. Brown is a popular and<br>
>> clear example of this process. The differences between the monetary<br>
>> policies of the US Union as compared to the monetary policies of the<br>
>> Southern Confederacy is a much better example. Generally Zarlenga's book<br>
>> can serve as an antidote. I believe that Abba Lerner did extensive<br>
>> research into the details of the economics of the US Confederacy which<br>
>> as<br>
>> a confederacy was not even a sovereignty based process, and actually<br>
>> close<br>
>> to the present EMU process. So much for looking into history to find<br>
>> more<br>
>> than a simple reflection of present presumptions.<br>
>><br>
>> Regarding the "legality" of sovereign governments printing their own<br>
>> currency it is actually the standard, except that we have been led to<br>
>> believe that it is the franchise of privately owned banking cartel is<br>
>> the<br>
>> only "real" and accepted process, which is straight away false. No, it<br>
>> is<br>
>> not a legitimate subject of research, unless the details of MMT are<br>
>> declared by conflation and misrepresentation to be falsified, or if the<br>
>> intent is to sustain the privatized franchise or to re-invent MMT under<br>
>> a<br>
>> different branding. Zimbabwe is frequently pulled out as a bad example<br>
>> of<br>
>> the use of the sovereign use of currency, while simultaneously ignoring<br>
>> the massive incompetence and self dealing of that government. If there<br>
>> is<br>
>> an interest in a different slant on the hyper-inflation<br>
>> hyper-ventilation<br>
>> try this article.<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/233" target="_blank">http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/233</a><br>
>><br>
>> While I appreciate in principle the P2P model deeply, it has to involve<br>
>> some level of rigorous discourse and examination. Despite the popularity<br>
>> of Ellen Brown, her material continues to play to a strategy of<br>
>> persuasion<br>
>> rather than analysis based upon informing facts, practices, and<br>
>> history. I<br>
>> did a close review of her "Money As Debt" for the AMI at one point and<br>
>> it<br>
>> is primarily a product of persuasion, not scientific in any serious<br>
>> sense.<br>
>> Her personal history was that previously she, as an attorney,<br>
>> specialized<br>
>> in writing briefs. That process boils down to picking a conclusion and a<br>
>> few key premises and then finding precedents which appear to validate<br>
>> the<br>
>> targeted conclusions. It is a rhetorical process to win an argument, and<br>
>> has little to do with on the ground history of facts. At one point<br>
>> Randall<br>
>> Wray offered to tutor Brown when she passed through Kansas City. Mo.<br>
>> promoting her book and self. She declined by not responding at all. This<br>
>> is how default paradigms get reproduced in an seemingly endless process.<br>
>><br>
>> Tadit<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:07:04 -0400, robert searle <<a href="mailto:dharao4@yahoo.co.uk">dharao4@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > ----- Forwarded Message -----<br>
>> > From: robert searle <<a href="mailto:dharao4@yahoo.co.uk">dharao4@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
>> > To: "<a href="mailto:dharao4@yahoo.co.uk">dharao4@yahoo.co.uk</a>" <<a href="mailto:dharao4@yahoo.co.uk">dharao4@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
>> > Sent: Monday, 26 September 2011, 12:54<br>
>> > Subject: Can "Printing" Monye Save Economies?<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > If for whatever reasons governments cannot pay off their debts one way<br>
>> > of achieving economic stability is to "print" it en masse!! This is<br>
>> not<br>
>> > ofcourse a good debt concellation/reduction plan (!) as it could lead<br>
>> to<br>
>> > serious inflation, or even hyperinflation.....but it can work..if not<br>
>> > too much money is created by governments. Something like this could<br>
>> > ultimately save the Euro if it occurs on a large enough scale.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > In pre-revolutionary America colonists found it very difficult to<br>
>> raise<br>
>> > funds in the various States they created. So, they resorted to the<br>
>> > printing press. Quite often this worked but not always (ref. Ellen<br>
>> > Brown/Web of Debt). Infact, the American War of Independence was<br>
>> funded<br>
>> > by printing money. This money was known as the Continentals but it<br>
>> > ultimately lead to serious inflation. However, it is claimed that the<br>
>> > Brits had been "flooding" the money supply with fake copies. The same<br>
>> > claim was also made about the Assignats created during the French<br>
>> > Revolution (ref. Zarlenga, and his key book on money). The American<br>
>> > Civil War was funded by Lincoln with his Greenbacks notes created by<br>
>> the<br>
>> > then existing government. This did not lead serious inflation as far<br>
>> as<br>
>> > we know...The Russian Revolution was largely funded in a like manner<br>
>> > though there is some talk about some capital being borrowed by private<br>
>> > foreign commercial banks.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > It appears too that Hitlers miracle economic "revolution" leading to<br>
>> WII<br>
>> > was due to simply printing money but with strong price controls in<br>
>> place<br>
>> > on many products. Apparently, the same goes for the funding of the<br>
>> > Vietnam War when President Johnson admitted that it could not be<br>
>> > financed by taxation because the war was �so unpopular .......This is<br>
>> a<br>
>> > big subject, and no doubt other examples have not been included here<br>
>> > (notably Zimbabwe!!).<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > There are a number of articles about Hitler "printing" money on the<br>
>> > internet along with the Vietnam War (plus the �Assignats, Greenbacks,<br>
>> et<br>
>> > cetera, et cetera). �As far as I understand it governments cannot<br>
>> > legally create money electronically en direct into �the economy.<br>
>> > However, it is not fully �clear whether they can still print it<br>
>> > "legally". To very limitedextent this occurs but if huge amounts were<br>
>> > to �be involved this might require somekind of legal arrangement. This<br>
>> > is still subject to research.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="http://www.google.co.uk/#pq=hitler+and+monetary+reform&hl=en&sugexp=tsh&cp=19&gs_id=20&xhr=t&q=hitler+prints+money&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=hitler+prints+money&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=92910b6b81417d8f&biw=1024&bih=585" target="_blank">http://www.google.co.uk/#pq=hitler+and+monetary+reform&hl=en&sugexp=tsh&cp=19&gs_id=20&xhr=t&q=hitler+prints+money&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=hitler+prints+money&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=92910b6b81417d8f&biw=1024&bih=585</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="http://www.google.co.uk/#pq=hitler+prints+money&hl=en&sugexp=tsh&cp=40&gs_id=3f&xhr=t&q=vietnam+president+johnson+printing+print+money&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=vietnam+president+johnson+printing+print+money&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=92910b6b81417d8f&biw=1024&bih=585" target="_blank">http://www.google.co.uk/#pq=hitler+prints+money&hl=en&sugexp=tsh&cp=40&gs_id=3f&xhr=t&q=vietnam+president+johnson+printing+print+money&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=vietnam+president+johnson+printing+print+money&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=92910b6b81417d8f&biw=1024&bih=585</a><br>
>><br>
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