[P2P-F] Fw: Can "Printing" Money Save Economies? The Answer, Yes, and No....

Mon Sep 26 19:53:35 CEST 2011

Michel, I will dig up my review of her book and send it to you. Meanwhile,  
consider Jaimie Walton's review at  
http://www.monetary.org/review-of-ellen-browns-the-web-of-debt/2010/12

Walton's criticism is close to my analysis. Yes, this a serious process   
Walton's analysis is a tight analysis and it is posted by the American  
Monetary Institute, which is well outside of the MMT zone. Once you have  
Walton's article come back and we can discuss it. It may take awhile to  
understand that it is neo-classical economics which is a cult. Looking  
 from the outside it is easy to understand how MMT might be considered to  
be a cult. However, in exploring MMT/functional finance you will find that  
its standards of discourse are on a par with the best of scientific  
discourses. I will respond more fully to your concerns. To the ordinary  
citizen her material may seem provocative and vaguely progressive, and it  
is not, particularly not in a close analysis. \\

when you are ready I will respond further. Tadit

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:00:39 -0400, Michel Bauwens  
<michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:

> your making a serious accusation here, what evidence do you have that  
> Ellen
> Brown does not simply disagree, but is actually funded for  
> disinformation by
> the banking cartel ?
>
> In fact, all the evidence is that they would hate her book, which is an
> argument for the sovereign creation of money and against debt-based  
> currency
> creation,
>
> the attacks against anyone who disagrees, such as Krugman, Stiglizt,  
> Brown
> etc .. gives the impression that MMT behaves more like a cult than to  
> engage
> in open and peer-based debate ..
>
> Michel
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 7:55 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
>
>> Please, excuse, and some of the text is partial and misleading. This
>> objection should not be taken in an ad hominen intent. The British had  
>> at
>> least one printing press operating on a ship in the New York harbor  
>> busily
>> counterfeiting the Continentals and then putting them into circulation.  
>> So
>> no, the Continental Congress's use of the Continentals did not produce
>> inflation, but the British counterfeiting operation did. Dys-information
>> regarding monetary practices and history is a well established tactic  
>> and
>> it usually arrives in the form of Pop-economics funded by the banking
>> cartel to preserve their monopolistic franchise. Brown is a popular and
>> clear example of this process. The differences between the monetary
>> policies of the US Union as compared to the monetary policies of the
>> Southern Confederacy is a much better example. Generally Zarlenga's book
>> can serve as an antidote. I believe that Abba Lerner did extensive
>> research into the details of the economics of the US Confederacy which  
>> as
>> a confederacy was not even a sovereignty based process, and actually  
>> close
>> to the present EMU process. So much for looking into history to find  
>> more
>> than a simple reflection of present presumptions.
>>
>> Regarding the "legality" of sovereign governments printing their own
>> currency it is actually the standard, except that we have been led to
>> believe that it is the franchise of privately owned banking cartel is  
>> the
>> only "real" and accepted process, which is straight away false. No, it  
>> is
>> not a legitimate subject of research, unless the details of MMT are
>> declared by conflation and misrepresentation to be falsified, or if the
>> intent is to sustain the privatized franchise or to re-invent MMT under  
>> a
>> different branding. Zimbabwe is frequently pulled out as a bad example  
>> of
>> the use of the sovereign use of currency, while simultaneously ignoring
>> the massive incompetence and self dealing of that government. If there  
>> is
>> an interest in a different slant on the hyper-inflation  
>> hyper-ventilation
>> try this article.
>>
>> http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/233
>>
>> While I appreciate in principle the P2P model deeply, it has to involve
>> some level of rigorous discourse and examination. Despite the popularity
>> of Ellen Brown, her material continues to play to a strategy of  
>> persuasion
>> rather than analysis based upon informing facts, practices, and  
>> history. I
>> did a close review of her "Money As Debt" for the AMI at one point and  
>> it
>> is primarily a product of persuasion, not scientific in any serious  
>> sense.
>> Her personal history was that previously she, as an attorney,  
>> specialized
>> in writing briefs. That process boils down to picking a conclusion and a
>> few key premises and then finding precedents which appear to validate  
>> the
>> targeted conclusions. It is a rhetorical process to win an argument, and
>> has little to do with on the ground history of facts. At one point  
>> Randall
>> Wray offered to tutor Brown when she passed through Kansas City. Mo.
>> promoting her book and self. She declined by not responding at all. This
>> is how default paradigms get reproduced in an seemingly endless process.
>>
>> Tadit
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:07:04 -0400, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Forwarded Message -----
>> > From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
>> > To: "dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
>> > Sent: Monday, 26 September 2011, 12:54
>> > Subject: Can "Printing" Monye Save Economies?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If for whatever reasons governments cannot pay off their debts one way
>> > of achieving economic stability is to "print" it en masse!! This is  
>> not
>> > ofcourse a good debt concellation/reduction plan (!) as it could lead  
>> to
>> > serious inflation, or even hyperinflation.....but it can work..if not
>> > too much money is created by governments. Something like this could
>> > ultimately save the Euro if it occurs on a large enough scale.
>> >
>> > In pre-revolutionary America colonists found it very difficult to  
>> raise
>> > funds in the various States they created. So, they resorted to the
>> > printing press. Quite often this worked but not always (ref. Ellen
>> > Brown/Web of Debt). Infact, the American War of Independence was  
>> funded
>> > by printing money. This money was known as the Continentals but it
>> > ultimately lead to serious inflation. However, it is claimed that the
>> > Brits had been "flooding" the money supply with fake copies. The same
>> > claim was also made about the Assignats created during the French
>> > Revolution (ref. Zarlenga, and his key book on money). The American
>> > Civil War was funded by Lincoln with his Greenbacks notes created by  
>> the
>> > then existing government. This did not lead serious inflation as far  
>> as
>> > we know...The Russian Revolution was largely funded in a like manner
>> > though there is some talk about some capital being borrowed by private
>> > foreign commercial banks.
>> >
>> > It appears too that Hitlers miracle economic "revolution" leading to  
>> WII
>> > was due to simply printing money but with strong price controls in  
>> place
>> > on many products. Apparently, the same goes for the funding of the
>> > Vietnam War when President Johnson admitted that it could not be
>> > financed by taxation because the war was  so unpopular .......This is  
>> a
>> > big subject, and no doubt other examples have not been included here
>> > (notably Zimbabwe!!).
>> >
>> >
>> > There are a number of articles about Hitler "printing" money on the
>> > internet along with the Vietnam War (plus the  Assignats, Greenbacks,  
>> et
>> > cetera, et cetera).  As far as I understand it governments cannot
>> > legally create money electronically en direct into  the economy.
>> > However, it is not fully  clear whether they can still print it
>> > "legally". To very limitedextent this occurs but if huge amounts were
>> > to  be involved this might require somekind of legal arrangement. This
>> > is still subject to research.
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.google.co.uk/#pq=hitler+and+monetary+reform&hl=en&sugexp=tsh&cp=19&gs_id=20&xhr=t&q=hitler+prints+money&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=hitler+prints+money&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=92910b6b81417d8f&biw=1024&bih=585
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.google.co.uk/#pq=hitler+prints+money&hl=en&sugexp=tsh&cp=40&gs_id=3f&xhr=t&q=vietnam+president+johnson+printing+print+money&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=vietnam+president+johnson+printing+print+money&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=92910b6b81417d8f&biw=1024&bih=585
>>
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