[P2P-F] Energy : Production, Storage, Transportation, Allocation, ...

Tue Sep 6 09:07:44 CEST 2011

Hello Dante-Gabryell and All,

In the first paragraph, I said, "The inventor of the Bosch Captive Column
structural system originally designed it to go past the state of the art in
structures in the 1960s, * for use in dirigibles which would bring hydrogen
from offshore and remote on-shore wind farms to centers of use. He also
invented an electrolyzer for separating the hydrogen, and the Poly-turbine
windmill geometry, for minimizing the weight and enabling 300-foot
diameters."*  The Bosch Captive Column can also be used to create offshore
platforms for wind farms, and to make towers for high-voltage transmission
lines -- all at huge reductions in cost.

Regards,

Mark

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Mark. ( bcc: Chris Cook <http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook> , in
> case he is not on cotw lists already )
>
> Energy is a topic I find of great interest.
> I set up this blank wiki page to which we can add links or add some of our
> exchanges :
> http://cotw.cc/wiki/Energy
>
> I find interesting links on energy on
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Energy
> http://www.appropedia.org/Category:Energy
>
> //
>
> I also like a "Geothermal" link suggested by Chris Cook
> http://marshallhydrothermal.com/complete.htm
>
> via the "Next Edge" facebook group :
>
> http://www.facebook.com/groups/120497731371323/?view=permalink&id=146082265479536
>
> //
>
> Condensed Version of what I express below :
>
> Using the renewable energy available, and find ways to transport it,
> (but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to energy
> resource allocation.*[1] )
>
> I could imagine hydrogen being an approach to store and transport energy,
> though an approach with many challenges
>
> //
>
> *"The concept of an interconnected global grid linked to renewable
> resources was first suggested by Buckminster Fuller<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller> in
> the World Game <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Game> simulation in the
> 1970s. Fuller concluded that this strategy is the highest priority of the
> World Game simulation, (see page 206 of Fuller's book Critical
> Path (1981, ISBN 0-312-17491-8<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0312174918>
> )."*
> *
> *
> *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Energy_Network_Institute*
>
> //
>
> What financial and legal models can we set up to support such approaches ?
> Investing current mainstream energy in energy backed tokens ?
> As with the "grok" which, to my current understanding, enables
> investments/shares to serve as guarantee in an adapted mutual credit system
> approach ?
>
> see :
> http://regional-economic-communities.info/info/newsletters/2011-09-04/
>
> And/or combined with some of Chris Cook's finance/legal models ?
>
> see : http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> *Long Version :*
>
> Although I personally prefer not to become "fully dependent" on centralized
> production or distribution systems,
>
> I imagine potential in tapping into large scale centralized energy
> production systems as to be complementary to local small scale production
> facilities as additional non-survival based potential.
>
> I personally may not want to rely on only one mode of energy distribution,
> yet realized via the "Global Energy Network Institute" (
> http://www.geni.org/ ),
> who lobbies for a "*global ( electricity ) grid linked to renewable
> resources"*,
>
> video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fVI3BRBC6o
>
> that
>
> *"The concept of an interconnected global grid linked to renewable
> resources was first suggested by Buckminster Fuller<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller> in
> the World Game <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Game> simulation in the
> 1970s. Fuller concluded that this strategy is the highest priority of the
> World Game simulation, (see page 206 of Fuller's book Critical
> Path (1981, ISBN 0-312-17491-8<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0312174918>
> )."*
> *
> *
> *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Energy_Network_Institute*
>
>
> //
>
> I personally wish to use various technologies and approaches.
>
> I would be glad to build together on shared visions regarding local , small
> scale, self owned and controlled energy producing capacity on which can rest
> local and resilient survival systems,
>
> while also considering large scale infrastructure ( jointly owned under a
> cooperative ? )
> in potentially remote areas such as marine geothermal hotspots...
>
> Using the renewable energy available, and find ways to transport it,
> (but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to energy
> resource allocation.*[1] )
>
> I could imagine hydrogen being an approach to store and transport energy,
> though an approach with many challenges - due to its low density,
> flammability, need for low temperatures to enable liquid hydrogen,...
>
> I am aware there are studies for hydrogen tankers :
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tanker
>
> I am also aware tankers are already used for liquefied gas :
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNG_carrier
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas
>
> "cooling it to approximately -162 °C (-260 °F).
>
> The reduction in volume makes it much more cost efficient to transport over
> long distances where pipelines do not exist."
>
> ---
>
> Perhaps we could also use huge hydrogen flying Zeppelins to transport
> hydrogen
>
> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin ),
>
> though due to its high flammability, only transport goods with it, and have
> a limited crew with "escape" possibilities in case of a sudden explosion...
>
> I also imagine that the "Captive Column" Marc mentions (
> www.CaptiveColumn.com <http://www.captivecolumn.com/> )
>
> could be used for the construction of , for example, certain parts of such
> Zepplin ?
>
> ///
>
> I also wish to study the Captive Column further.
>
> Sounds interesting indeed for building windmills.
>
> I am also interested in using it in the context of housing, or nomadic
> housing :
>
> http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe
>
>
> ///
>
> What financial and legal models can we set up to support such approaches ?
> Investing current mainstream energy in energy backed tokens ?
> As with the "grok" which, to my current understanding, enables
> investments/shares to serve as guarantee in an adapted mutual credit system
> approach ?
>
> see :
> http://regional-economic-communities.info/info/newsletters/2011-09-04/
>
> And/or combined with some of Chris Cook's finance/legal models ?
>
> see : http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook
>
>
> ///
> [1]
> "but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to energy
> resource allocation." :
>
> What information system is used ? Does it guarantee for a monetary monopoly
> ? are there distributed approaches possible ? can it guarantee for energy
> backed resource allocation information systems in support of networked
> cooperative production ? - note : Chris Cook may have a lot of experience in
> relation to such questions.
>
> I also remember some exchanges with Marc Fawzi, when brainstorming with him
> around http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy )
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:51 PM, Mark Roest <marklroest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello Dante and Darren,
>>
>> The inventor of the Bosch Captive Column structural system originally
>> designed it to go past the state of the art in structures in the 1960s, for
>> use in dirigibles which would bring hydrogen from offshore and remote
>> on-shore wind farms to centers of use. He also invented an electrolyzer for
>> separating the hydrogen, and the Poly-turbine windmill geometry, for
>> minimizing the weight and enabling 300-foot diameters.
>>
>> You can see and learn about the Bosch Captive Column structural system and
>> the Poly-turbine windmill geometry at www.CaptiveColumn.com. I met
>> Lawrence Bosch in October of 1975, and worked with him for ten years. For
>> deep sustainability, the columns and cores can be made of bamboo or kenaf
>> (or fiberglass, corrugated corten steel, or graphite, produced using solar
>> furnaces). The skins have been made with silk, brass-clad steel wire,
>> fiberglass roving run through a resin bath and then a narrow eyelet to
>> remove the excess resin, various sewing threads, glass-reinforced shipping
>> tape, and aramid fiber (Kevlar).
>>
>> My first design exercise was for the square-rig masts and spars of the
>> Dynaship sailing cargo ship proposal. I came up with 15,000 pounds for a
>> 185-foot tall mast and its 90-foot spars -- vs 185,000 pounds in aluminum or
>> 212,000 pounds in steel for the *badly* designed version a naval
>> architect proposed. The design load was 15 million foot pounds of bending
>> moment at the deck, in a 50-knot wind with all sails set.
>>
>> You might want to consider alternatives to the dominant 'conventional'
>> engines of today. They are enormously expensive to purchase and maintain,
>> and cost so much to overhaul that they are usually abandoned when they stop
>> working. By supporting a coordinated effort to identify the most appropriate
>> applications for the various sterling-cycle or other engines that use heat
>> to vaporize a fluid, and for entirely different methods of producing and
>> storing motive power or electricity (check Gizmag for a few), we can create
>> policy proposals, correlated to market conditions mapped in geographic
>> information systems, that can lead to a market-forced transportation
>> transformation. (I met Tom Horst, who invented a steam engine drive unit
>> that weighed 50 pounds, had 7 moving parts, and produced 200 brake
>> horsepower at 2,000 rpm, with huge torque from zero rpm, using
>> counter-rotating pistons in a toroidal chamber, in the 1980s; no car or
>> truck manufacturer would touch it because it would obsolete their engine
>> plants.)
>>
>> Larry and I explored the tension structures industry in the late 1970s and
>> early 1980s; the Captive Column has been tested in column loading, with
>> strength to weight ratio results ranging from 2,000 to 1 up to 5,000 to 1
>> (using relatively short slenderness ratios). The lower end was made with a
>> balsa wood segmented core, fiberglass pultrusion columns and
>> glass-reinforced shipping tape for the skin! The upper end was a five-foot
>> tall replacement for 1,200 pound criss-cross stacks of timbers for
>> mine-shoring 'cribs' made of aluminum core and fiberglass columns and skin;
>> it weighed 200 pounds and took a load of a million pounds at the Denver
>> Bureau of Mines test center. If you look at the aircraft pontoon structure
>> (double-tapered, about 5 feet across at the center) you can see that the
>> slenderness ratio can be engineered to do whatever you need it to do to
>> support heavy loads in a 'tent' -- whether it is for a small group, or for
>> the equivalent of the Denver or Saudi airports.
>>
>> The products of the industrial fabric industry can last for decades in
>> extreme climates. But a sustainable marketing process must also be developed
>> to support the kinds of communities you envision. I have ideas for that as
>> well.
>>
>> I have over 40 years of this kind of thinking ("There is no box!" -- Amory
>> Lovins), and welcome working with you and others who have the Bucky bug. I
>> imprinted on his concept of comprehensive design science in his lecture
>> class at San Jose State University, in the spring semester of 1966.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Mark Roest
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Darren,
>>>
>>> I m interested.
>>>
>>> By the way, did you have a look into hydrogen powered stuff ? ( using
>>> conventional engines ? )
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle#Internal_combustion_vehicle
>>>
>>> http://www.delicious.com/deliciousdante/hydrogencombustion
>>>
>>> ( though probably not hydroxi... )
>>>
>>> I imagine the hydrogen produced via electrolysis, using renewable
>>> energies such as windmills ?
>>>
>>> //
>>>
>>> example :
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Darren Hill <mail at vegburner.co.uk>wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Hello Dante,
>>>>
>>>> I've lived on wheels for about half my adult life (4 years from the late
>>>> eighties and for the last 7 years or so.  I've previously thought about
>>>> similar ideas for a group of permacuture/sustainablity workers, but
>>>> motorised, (self produced biofuel powered, of course) rather than cycle
>>>> powered - can carry tools, materials from site to site.
>>>>
>>>> This also gels with a conversation I was just having about mobile
>>>> housing on twitter, following the UK housing minister suggesting house boats
>>>> being the answer to the housing crisis in the UK.
>>>>
>>>> Actually also just made me think of a very old Permaculture article -
>>>> think it was in an old UK photocopied publication (early nineties,
>>>> Permaculture Magazine?) - proposing sail catamaran dwelling nomadic
>>>> communities.
>>>>
>>>> I've also been working on ideas for new land owning mutuals in the UK
>>>> and was thinking that with enough land, mutuals could facilitate nomadic
>>>> workers travelling from site to site doing seasonal work.  Existing UK
>>>> planning regulations would allow 'temporary' structures for such workers.
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> Darren
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 28/08/2011 12:49, Dante-Gabryell Monson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> *Possibly some coalition people may be interested in developing such
>>>> "semi-neo-nomadic" approach together with me ? :)*
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>  *Feel free to edit - add - delete on this page :*
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>  *http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe*<http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  More below...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ////
>>>>
>>>>  I ve personally lived a hitch hiking nomad lifestyle for a few years,
>>>> and find a (semi?) nomad approach of interest ( also see :
>>>> http://nomadology.com )
>>>>
>>>>  I am aware that there is at least one "cycling tribe" roaming in
>>>> southern france.
>>>>
>>>>  Potentially
>>>>
>>>>  inter-related recent brainstormings below...
>>>>
>>>>  or here :
>>>>
>>>>  *" Vision : Semi-Nomad Healing Post-Industrial Tribes + Oasis "*
>>>>
>>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/Mq7w-b273OQ
>>>>
>>>>  *" Nomad Villages and Parametric Design - Modular Temporary Tensegrity
>>>> Villages "*
>>>>
>>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/K1Ewe5rpfxs
>>>>
>>>>  *" Composite Architecture , Textile Buildings , Modular and Nomadic,
>>>> Dimaxion House, Parametric Design, ... "*
>>>>
>>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/N1nt0JNsN7Y
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ///
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> via
>>>>
>>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/econowmix
>>>>
>>>>  RSS feed :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/econowmix/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml?num=50
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>>>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brainstorming :
>>>>>
>>>>>  Emerging Tribes of (Cycling?) Nomads,
>>>>>
>>>>> with various "Specializations" and "Missions/Services",
>>>>> while, each individual as entity capable of general/holistic
>>>>> understanding and/co-learning.
>>>>> and the tribe becoming very experienced in "Collective Intelligence"
>>>>> and "Capability for Emergency Response",
>>>>> along stigmergic tools and practices.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Type of potential mission :
>>>>>
>>>>>  Land healing consulting ; Land Permaculture Set up and consulting,
>>>>> Modular ( tent ? ) constructions,
>>>>> set up of post-industrial production infrastructure,
>>>>> complementary finance and currency consulting, ... etc
>>>>>
>>>>>  ////
>>>>>
>>>>>  The tribe could be cycling across europe,
>>>>> staying connected to the internet,
>>>>> having "eclaireurs/scouts" charged of future mission preparations,
>>>>> enabling certain decisions to be co-informed through technology and
>>>>> general assemblies,
>>>>> having rotating and self chosen tasks ( external mission tasks, but
>>>>> also self preservation tasks such as operation of food and kitchen, shelter
>>>>> / tent maintainance, bike maintainance, self-learning support, mutual-caring
>>>>> support, etc )
>>>>>
>>>>>  ////
>>>>>
>>>>>  A permanently moving tribe, which can stay on missions in certain
>>>>> places, such as "circuses" used to do,
>>>>> while moving from north to southern europe, according to the seasons.
>>>>>
>>>>>  /////
>>>>>
>>>>>  Land would be put to disposal ( for camping - with special kinds of
>>>>> comfortable and light weight "mobile villages" )
>>>>> by the farmers or communities that wish to welcome the "nomads" and/or
>>>>> employ them for their services.
>>>>>
>>>>>  ////
>>>>>
>>>>>  Money earned could go into maintaining the movement of the
>>>>> collective,
>>>>> with surplus invested in setting up "oasis", which are the movements
>>>>> more permanent "bases",
>>>>> to which nomads can return to.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Investments can be made for infrastructure as to increase
>>>>> progressively autonomy from dependencies on monopolistic economic networks /
>>>>> support diversification,
>>>>>
>>>>>  and investments can also be made in the cheapest land ( within
>>>>> potential for ideal context development )
>>>>> on which value can then be created outside of monopolistic economic
>>>>> networks.
>>>>>
>>>>>  ////
>>>>>
>>>>>  Hence a trans-modern approach to semi-nomadism,
>>>>> such as the nomads who trade salt on their camels,
>>>>> going on expeditions, and then returning to their oasis.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 3:02 PM
>>>> Subject: Nomad Villages and Parametric Design - Modular Temporary
>>>> Tensegrity Villages
>>>> To: econowmix at googlegroups.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Additional Brainstorming :
>>>>
>>>>  I also imagine such villages of nomads
>>>> using "modular" tent like structures, using "tensegrity"
>>>> and "Parametric Design" with 3d modelling calculations,
>>>> using data about future terrains that will be used for the temporary
>>>> village,
>>>> as to "re-assemble" the "tent village" based on all modular lightweight
>>>> objects available,
>>>> potential to include or add local materials and soil for temporary
>>>> constructions,
>>>> and calculate a re-design for a temporary village,
>>>>
>>>>  of which each of the modular components of the tents, which can also
>>>> use tensegrity approaches,
>>>>
>>>>  are then re-calculated in their position,
>>>> and where each modular element becomes a "spime" with its own uri (
>>>> unique resource identifier ) allocated to the rfid ( magnetic ) tag of the
>>>> object,
>>>>
>>>>  hence making it easy for any of the "builders" to follow assembling
>>>> instructions from their smart phone, based on the re-assembly plans,
>>>>
>>>>  as to re-build customized villages ,
>>>>
>>>>  after they have been designed using "parametric design" and generative
>>>> architecture softwares.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.google.be/search?sourceid=chrome&client=ubuntu&channel=cs&ie=UTF-8&q=parametric+design
>>>>
>>>>  also see this post :
>>>>
>>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/N1nt0JNsN7Y
>>>>
>>>>  " Composite Architecture , Textile Buildings , Modular and Nomadic,
>>>> Dimaxion House, Parametric Design, ..."
>>>>  --
>>>> -----------Coalition of the Willing-----------
>>>> The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep
>>>> the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
>>>>
>>>> For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That
>>>> wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All
>>>> group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus,
>>>> channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation &
>>>> keeping up-to-speed.
>>>>
>>>> "BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals,
>>>> endorsing & signing up for work, and tracking tasks.
>>>> https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163
>>>> Share the film: http://cotw.me/film
>>>> -----------------
>>>> You are subscribed to coalition at googlegroups.com
>>>> To unsubscribe email coalition+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
>>>> For more options http://groups.google.com/group/coalition?hl=en
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> -----------Coalition of the Willing-----------
>>>> The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep
>>>> the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
>>>>
>>>> For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That
>>>> wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All
>>>> group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus,
>>>> channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation &
>>>> keeping up-to-speed.
>>>>
>>>> "BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals,
>>>> endorsing & signing up for work, and tracking tasks.
>>>> https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163
>>>> Share the film: http://cotw.me/film
>>>> -----------------
>>>> You are subscribed to coalition at googlegroups.com
>>>> To unsubscribe email coalition+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
>>>> For more options http://groups.google.com/group/coalition?hl=en
>>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>> -----------Coalition of the Willing-----------
>>> The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep
>>> the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
>>>
>>> For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That
>>> wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All
>>> group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus,
>>> channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation &
>>> keeping up-to-speed.
>>>
>>> "BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals,
>>> endorsing & signing up for work, and tracking tasks.
>>> https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163
>>> Share the film: http://cotw.me/film
>>> -----------------
>>> You are subscribed to coalition at googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe email coalition+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
>>> For more options http://groups.google.com/group/coalition?hl=en
>>>
>>
>>
>
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