[P2P-F] <Coalition> Re: Energy : Production, Storage, Transportation, Allocation, ...

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Thanks Marc,

my apologies for not making it clear in my message that I was building on
some of the ideas and suggestions you put forward in a previous post of the
same thread.

Thanks for bringing forward your experience,
looking forward to further exchanges,
Dante

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Mark Roest <marklroest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Dante-Gabryell and All,
>
> In the first paragraph, I said, "The inventor of the Bosch Captive Column
> structural system originally designed it to go past the state of the art in
> structures in the 1960s, * for use in dirigibles which would bring
> hydrogen from offshore and remote on-shore wind farms to centers of use. He
> also invented an electrolyzer for separating the hydrogen, and the
> Poly-turbine windmill geometry, for minimizing the weight and enabling
> 300-foot diameters."*  The Bosch Captive Column can also be used to create
> offshore platforms for wind farms, and to make towers for high-voltage
> transmission lines -- all at huge reductions in cost.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Mark. ( bcc: Chris Cook <http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook> , in
>> case he is not on cotw lists already )
>>
>> Energy is a topic I find of great interest.
>> I set up this blank wiki page to which we can add links or add some of our
>> exchanges :
>> http://cotw.cc/wiki/Energy
>>
>> I find interesting links on energy on
>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Energy
>> http://www.appropedia.org/Category:Energy
>>
>> //
>>
>> I also like a "Geothermal" link suggested by Chris Cook
>> http://marshallhydrothermal.com/complete.htm
>>
>> via the "Next Edge" facebook group :
>>
>> http://www.facebook.com/groups/120497731371323/?view=permalink&id=146082265479536
>>
>> //
>>
>> Condensed Version of what I express below :
>>
>> Using the renewable energy available, and find ways to transport it,
>> (but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to
>> energy resource allocation.*[1] )
>>
>> I could imagine hydrogen being an approach to store and transport energy,
>> though an approach with many challenges
>>
>> //
>>
>> *"The concept of an interconnected global grid linked to renewable
>> resources was first suggested by Buckminster Fuller<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller> in
>> the World Game <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Game> simulation in
>> the 1970s. Fuller concluded that this strategy is the highest priority of
>> the World Game simulation, (see page 206 of Fuller's book Critical
>> Path (1981, ISBN 0-312-17491-8<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0312174918>
>> )."*
>> *
>> *
>> *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Energy_Network_Institute*
>>
>> //
>>
>> What financial and legal models can we set up to support such approaches ?
>> Investing current mainstream energy in energy backed tokens ?
>> As with the "grok" which, to my current understanding, enables
>> investments/shares to serve as guarantee in an adapted mutual credit system
>> approach ?
>>
>> see :
>> http://regional-economic-communities.info/info/newsletters/2011-09-04/
>>
>> And/or combined with some of Chris Cook's finance/legal models ?
>>
>> see : http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> *Long Version :*
>>
>> Although I personally prefer not to become "fully dependent" on
>> centralized production or distribution systems,
>>
>> I imagine potential in tapping into large scale centralized energy
>> production systems as to be complementary to local small scale production
>> facilities as additional non-survival based potential.
>>
>> I personally may not want to rely on only one mode of energy distribution,
>> yet realized via the "Global Energy Network Institute" (
>> http://www.geni.org/ ),
>> who lobbies for a "*global ( electricity ) grid linked to renewable
>> resources"*,
>>
>> video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fVI3BRBC6o
>>
>> that
>>
>> *"The concept of an interconnected global grid linked to renewable
>> resources was first suggested by Buckminster Fuller<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller> in
>> the World Game <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Game> simulation in
>> the 1970s. Fuller concluded that this strategy is the highest priority of
>> the World Game simulation, (see page 206 of Fuller's book Critical
>> Path (1981, ISBN 0-312-17491-8<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0312174918>
>> )."*
>> *
>> *
>> *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Energy_Network_Institute*
>>
>>
>> //
>>
>> I personally wish to use various technologies and approaches.
>>
>> I would be glad to build together on shared visions regarding local ,
>> small scale, self owned and controlled energy producing capacity on which
>> can rest local and resilient survival systems,
>>
>> while also considering large scale infrastructure ( jointly owned under a
>> cooperative ? )
>> in potentially remote areas such as marine geothermal hotspots...
>>
>> Using the renewable energy available, and find ways to transport it,
>> (but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to
>> energy resource allocation.*[1] )
>>
>> I could imagine hydrogen being an approach to store and transport energy,
>> though an approach with many challenges - due to its low density,
>> flammability, need for low temperatures to enable liquid hydrogen,...
>>
>> I am aware there are studies for hydrogen tankers :
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tanker
>>
>> I am also aware tankers are already used for liquefied gas :
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNG_carrier
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas
>>
>> "cooling it to approximately -162 °C (-260 °F).
>>
>> The reduction in volume makes it much more cost efficient to transport
>> over long distances where pipelines do not exist."
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Perhaps we could also use huge hydrogen flying Zeppelins to transport
>> hydrogen
>>
>> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin ),
>>
>> though due to its high flammability, only transport goods with it, and
>> have a limited crew with "escape" possibilities in case of a sudden
>> explosion...
>>
>> I also imagine that the "Captive Column" Marc mentions (
>> www.CaptiveColumn.com <http://www.captivecolumn.com/> )
>>
>> could be used for the construction of , for example, certain parts of such
>> Zepplin ?
>>
>> ///
>>
>> I also wish to study the Captive Column further.
>>
>> Sounds interesting indeed for building windmills.
>>
>> I am also interested in using it in the context of housing, or nomadic
>> housing :
>>
>> http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe
>>
>>
>> ///
>>
>> What financial and legal models can we set up to support such approaches ?
>> Investing current mainstream energy in energy backed tokens ?
>> As with the "grok" which, to my current understanding, enables
>> investments/shares to serve as guarantee in an adapted mutual credit system
>> approach ?
>>
>> see :
>> http://regional-economic-communities.info/info/newsletters/2011-09-04/
>>
>> And/or combined with some of Chris Cook's finance/legal models ?
>>
>> see : http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook
>>
>>
>> ///
>> [1]
>> "but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to
>> energy resource allocation." :
>>
>> What information system is used ? Does it guarantee for a monetary
>> monopoly ? are there distributed approaches possible ? can it guarantee for
>> energy backed resource allocation information systems in support of
>> networked cooperative production ? - note : Chris Cook may have a lot of
>> experience in relation to such questions.
>>
>> I also remember some exchanges with Marc Fawzi, when brainstorming with
>> him around http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy )
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:51 PM, Mark Roest <marklroest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Dante and Darren,
>>>
>>> The inventor of the Bosch Captive Column structural system originally
>>> designed it to go past the state of the art in structures in the 1960s, for
>>> use in dirigibles which would bring hydrogen from offshore and remote
>>> on-shore wind farms to centers of use. He also invented an electrolyzer for
>>> separating the hydrogen, and the Poly-turbine windmill geometry, for
>>> minimizing the weight and enabling 300-foot diameters.
>>>
>>> You can see and learn about the Bosch Captive Column structural system
>>> and the Poly-turbine windmill geometry at www.CaptiveColumn.com. I met
>>> Lawrence Bosch in October of 1975, and worked with him for ten years. For
>>> deep sustainability, the columns and cores can be made of bamboo or kenaf
>>> (or fiberglass, corrugated corten steel, or graphite, produced using solar
>>> furnaces). The skins have been made with silk, brass-clad steel wire,
>>> fiberglass roving run through a resin bath and then a narrow eyelet to
>>> remove the excess resin, various sewing threads, glass-reinforced shipping
>>> tape, and aramid fiber (Kevlar).
>>>
>>> My first design exercise was for the square-rig masts and spars of the
>>> Dynaship sailing cargo ship proposal. I came up with 15,000 pounds for a
>>> 185-foot tall mast and its 90-foot spars -- vs 185,000 pounds in aluminum or
>>> 212,000 pounds in steel for the *badly* designed version a naval
>>> architect proposed. The design load was 15 million foot pounds of bending
>>> moment at the deck, in a 50-knot wind with all sails set.
>>>
>>> You might want to consider alternatives to the dominant 'conventional'
>>> engines of today. They are enormously expensive to purchase and maintain,
>>> and cost so much to overhaul that they are usually abandoned when they stop
>>> working. By supporting a coordinated effort to identify the most appropriate
>>> applications for the various sterling-cycle or other engines that use heat
>>> to vaporize a fluid, and for entirely different methods of producing and
>>> storing motive power or electricity (check Gizmag for a few), we can create
>>> policy proposals, correlated to market conditions mapped in geographic
>>> information systems, that can lead to a market-forced transportation
>>> transformation. (I met Tom Horst, who invented a steam engine drive unit
>>> that weighed 50 pounds, had 7 moving parts, and produced 200 brake
>>> horsepower at 2,000 rpm, with huge torque from zero rpm, using
>>> counter-rotating pistons in a toroidal chamber, in the 1980s; no car or
>>> truck manufacturer would touch it because it would obsolete their engine
>>> plants.)
>>>
>>> Larry and I explored the tension structures industry in the late 1970s
>>> and early 1980s; the Captive Column has been tested in column loading, with
>>> strength to weight ratio results ranging from 2,000 to 1 up to 5,000 to 1
>>> (using relatively short slenderness ratios). The lower end was made with a
>>> balsa wood segmented core, fiberglass pultrusion columns and
>>> glass-reinforced shipping tape for the skin! The upper end was a five-foot
>>> tall replacement for 1,200 pound criss-cross stacks of timbers for
>>> mine-shoring 'cribs' made of aluminum core and fiberglass columns and skin;
>>> it weighed 200 pounds and took a load of a million pounds at the Denver
>>> Bureau of Mines test center. If you look at the aircraft pontoon structure
>>> (double-tapered, about 5 feet across at the center) you can see that the
>>> slenderness ratio can be engineered to do whatever you need it to do to
>>> support heavy loads in a 'tent' -- whether it is for a small group, or for
>>> the equivalent of the Denver or Saudi airports.
>>>
>>> The products of the industrial fabric industry can last for decades in
>>> extreme climates. But a sustainable marketing process must also be developed
>>> to support the kinds of communities you envision. I have ideas for that as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I have over 40 years of this kind of thinking ("There is no box!" --
>>> Amory Lovins), and welcome working with you and others who have the Bucky
>>> bug. I imprinted on his concept of comprehensive design science in his
>>> lecture class at San Jose State University, in the spring semester of 1966.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Mark Roest
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Darren,
>>>>
>>>> I m interested.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, did you have a look into hydrogen powered stuff ? ( using
>>>> conventional engines ? )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle#Internal_combustion_vehicle
>>>>
>>>> http://www.delicious.com/deliciousdante/hydrogencombustion
>>>>
>>>> ( though probably not hydroxi... )
>>>>
>>>> I imagine the hydrogen produced via electrolysis, using renewable
>>>> energies such as windmills ?
>>>>
>>>> //
>>>>
>>>> example :
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Darren Hill <mail at vegburner.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Hello Dante,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've lived on wheels for about half my adult life (4 years from the
>>>>> late eighties and for the last 7 years or so.  I've previously thought about
>>>>> similar ideas for a group of permacuture/sustainablity workers, but
>>>>> motorised, (self produced biofuel powered, of course) rather than cycle
>>>>> powered - can carry tools, materials from site to site.
>>>>>
>>>>> This also gels with a conversation I was just having about mobile
>>>>> housing on twitter, following the UK housing minister suggesting house boats
>>>>> being the answer to the housing crisis in the UK.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually also just made me think of a very old Permaculture article -
>>>>> think it was in an old UK photocopied publication (early nineties,
>>>>> Permaculture Magazine?) - proposing sail catamaran dwelling nomadic
>>>>> communities.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've also been working on ideas for new land owning mutuals in the UK
>>>>> and was thinking that with enough land, mutuals could facilitate nomadic
>>>>> workers travelling from site to site doing seasonal work.  Existing UK
>>>>> planning regulations would allow 'temporary' structures for such workers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>>
>>>>> Darren
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 28/08/2011 12:49, Dante-Gabryell Monson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> *Possibly some coalition people may be interested in developing such
>>>>> "semi-neo-nomadic" approach together with me ? :)*
>>>>> *
>>>>> *
>>>>>  *Feel free to edit - add - delete on this page :*
>>>>> *
>>>>> *
>>>>>  *http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe*<http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  More below...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  ////
>>>>>
>>>>>  I ve personally lived a hitch hiking nomad lifestyle for a few years,
>>>>> and find a (semi?) nomad approach of interest ( also see :
>>>>> http://nomadology.com )
>>>>>
>>>>>  I am aware that there is at least one "cycling tribe" roaming in
>>>>> southern france.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Potentially
>>>>>
>>>>>  inter-related recent brainstormings below...
>>>>>
>>>>>  or here :
>>>>>
>>>>>  *" Vision : Semi-Nomad Healing Post-Industrial Tribes + Oasis "*
>>>>>
>>>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/Mq7w-b273OQ
>>>>>
>>>>>  *" Nomad Villages and Parametric Design - Modular Temporary
>>>>> Tensegrity Villages "*
>>>>>
>>>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/K1Ewe5rpfxs
>>>>>
>>>>>  *" Composite Architecture , Textile Buildings , Modular and Nomadic,
>>>>> Dimaxion House, Parametric Design, ... "*
>>>>>
>>>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/N1nt0JNsN7Y
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  ///
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> via
>>>>>
>>>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/econowmix
>>>>>
>>>>>  RSS feed :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/econowmix/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml?num=50
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>>>>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brainstorming :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Emerging Tribes of (Cycling?) Nomads,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> with various "Specializations" and "Missions/Services",
>>>>>> while, each individual as entity capable of general/holistic
>>>>>> understanding and/co-learning.
>>>>>> and the tribe becoming very experienced in "Collective Intelligence"
>>>>>> and "Capability for Emergency Response",
>>>>>> along stigmergic tools and practices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Type of potential mission :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Land healing consulting ; Land Permaculture Set up and consulting,
>>>>>> Modular ( tent ? ) constructions,
>>>>>> set up of post-industrial production infrastructure,
>>>>>> complementary finance and currency consulting, ... etc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  ////
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  The tribe could be cycling across europe,
>>>>>> staying connected to the internet,
>>>>>> having "eclaireurs/scouts" charged of future mission preparations,
>>>>>> enabling certain decisions to be co-informed through technology and
>>>>>> general assemblies,
>>>>>> having rotating and self chosen tasks ( external mission tasks, but
>>>>>> also self preservation tasks such as operation of food and kitchen, shelter
>>>>>> / tent maintainance, bike maintainance, self-learning support, mutual-caring
>>>>>> support, etc )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  ////
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  A permanently moving tribe, which can stay on missions in certain
>>>>>> places, such as "circuses" used to do,
>>>>>> while moving from north to southern europe, according to the seasons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  /////
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Land would be put to disposal ( for camping - with special kinds of
>>>>>> comfortable and light weight "mobile villages" )
>>>>>> by the farmers or communities that wish to welcome the "nomads" and/or
>>>>>> employ them for their services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  ////
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Money earned could go into maintaining the movement of the
>>>>>> collective,
>>>>>> with surplus invested in setting up "oasis", which are the movements
>>>>>> more permanent "bases",
>>>>>> to which nomads can return to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Investments can be made for infrastructure as to increase
>>>>>> progressively autonomy from dependencies on monopolistic economic networks /
>>>>>> support diversification,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  and investments can also be made in the cheapest land ( within
>>>>>> potential for ideal context development )
>>>>>> on which value can then be created outside of monopolistic economic
>>>>>> networks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  ////
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Hence a trans-modern approach to semi-nomadism,
>>>>>> such as the nomads who trade salt on their camels,
>>>>>> going on expeditions, and then returning to their oasis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> From: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 3:02 PM
>>>>> Subject: Nomad Villages and Parametric Design - Modular Temporary
>>>>> Tensegrity Villages
>>>>> To: econowmix at googlegroups.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Additional Brainstorming :
>>>>>
>>>>>  I also imagine such villages of nomads
>>>>> using "modular" tent like structures, using "tensegrity"
>>>>> and "Parametric Design" with 3d modelling calculations,
>>>>> using data about future terrains that will be used for the temporary
>>>>> village,
>>>>> as to "re-assemble" the "tent village" based on all modular lightweight
>>>>> objects available,
>>>>> potential to include or add local materials and soil for temporary
>>>>> constructions,
>>>>> and calculate a re-design for a temporary village,
>>>>>
>>>>>  of which each of the modular components of the tents, which can also
>>>>> use tensegrity approaches,
>>>>>
>>>>>  are then re-calculated in their position,
>>>>> and where each modular element becomes a "spime" with its own uri (
>>>>> unique resource identifier ) allocated to the rfid ( magnetic ) tag of the
>>>>> object,
>>>>>
>>>>>  hence making it easy for any of the "builders" to follow assembling
>>>>> instructions from their smart phone, based on the re-assembly plans,
>>>>>
>>>>>  as to re-build customized villages ,
>>>>>
>>>>>  after they have been designed using "parametric design" and
>>>>> generative architecture softwares.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.google.be/search?sourceid=chrome&client=ubuntu&channel=cs&ie=UTF-8&q=parametric+design
>>>>>
>>>>>  also see this post :
>>>>>
>>>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/N1nt0JNsN7Y
>>>>>
>>>>>  " Composite Architecture , Textile Buildings , Modular and Nomadic,
>>>>> Dimaxion House, Parametric Design, ..."
>>>>>  --
>>>>> -----------Coalition of the Willing-----------
>>>>> The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action.
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>>>>>
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>>>>> keeping up-to-speed.
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>  --
>>>>> -----------Coalition of the Willing-----------
>>>>> The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action.
>>>>> Keep the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for
>>>>> brevity.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That
>>>>> wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All
>>>>> group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus,
>>>>> channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation &
>>>>> keeping up-to-speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> "BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals,
>>>>> endorsing & signing up for work, and tracking tasks.
>>>>> https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163
>>>>> Share the film: http://cotw.me/film
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> -----------Coalition of the Willing-----------
>>>> The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep
>>>> the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
>>>>
>>>> For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That
>>>> wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All
>>>> group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus,
>>>> channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation &
>>>> keeping up-to-speed.
>>>>
>>>> "BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals,
>>>> endorsing & signing up for work, and tracking tasks.
>>>> https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163
>>>> Share the film: http://cotw.me/film
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>>>
>>>
>>
>  --
> -----------Coalition of the Willing-----------
> The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep
> the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
>
> For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That
> wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All
> group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus,
> channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation &
> keeping up-to-speed.
>
> "BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals, endorsing
> & signing up for work, and tracking tasks.
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