[P2P-F] Energy : Production, Storage, Transportation, Allocation, ...

Mon Sep 5 18:24:34 CEST 2011

Thanks Mark. ( bcc: Chris Cook <http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook> , in
case he is not on cotw lists already )

Energy is a topic I find of great interest.
I set up this blank wiki page to which we can add links or add some of our
exchanges :
http://cotw.cc/wiki/Energy

I find interesting links on energy on
http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Energy
http://www.appropedia.org/Category:Energy

//

I also like a "Geothermal" link suggested by Chris Cook
http://marshallhydrothermal.com/complete.htm

via the "Next Edge" facebook group :
http://www.facebook.com/groups/120497731371323/?view=permalink&id=146082265479536

//

Condensed Version of what I express below :

Using the renewable energy available, and find ways to transport it,
(but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to energy
resource allocation.*[1] )

I could imagine hydrogen being an approach to store and transport energy,
though an approach with many challenges

//

*"The concept of an interconnected global grid linked to renewable resources
was first suggested by Buckminster
Fuller<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller> in
the World Game <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Game> simulation in the
1970s. Fuller concluded that this strategy is the highest priority of the
World Game simulation, (see page 206 of Fuller's book Critical Path (1981, ISBN
0-312-17491-8 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0312174918>
)."*
*
*
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Energy_Network_Institute*

//

What financial and legal models can we set up to support such approaches ?
Investing current mainstream energy in energy backed tokens ?
As with the "grok" which, to my current understanding, enables
investments/shares to serve as guarantee in an adapted mutual credit system
approach ?

see : http://regional-economic-communities.info/info/newsletters/2011-09-04/

And/or combined with some of Chris Cook's finance/legal models ?

see : http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Long Version :*

Although I personally prefer not to become "fully dependent" on centralized
production or distribution systems,

I imagine potential in tapping into large scale centralized energy
production systems as to be complementary to local small scale production
facilities as additional non-survival based potential.

I personally may not want to rely on only one mode of energy distribution,
yet realized via the "Global Energy Network Institute" (
http://www.geni.org/ ),
who lobbies for a "*global ( electricity ) grid linked to renewable
resources"*,

video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fVI3BRBC6o

that

*"The concept of an interconnected global grid linked to renewable resources
was first suggested by Buckminster
Fuller<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller> in
the World Game <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Game> simulation in the
1970s. Fuller concluded that this strategy is the highest priority of the
World Game simulation, (see page 206 of Fuller's book Critical Path (1981, ISBN
0-312-17491-8 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0312174918>
)."*
*
*
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Energy_Network_Institute*

//

I personally wish to use various technologies and approaches.

I would be glad to build together on shared visions regarding local , small
scale, self owned and controlled energy producing capacity on which can rest
local and resilient survival systems,

while also considering large scale infrastructure ( jointly owned under a
cooperative ? )
in potentially remote areas such as marine geothermal hotspots...

Using the renewable energy available, and find ways to transport it,
(but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to energy
resource allocation.*[1] )

I could imagine hydrogen being an approach to store and transport energy,
though an approach with many challenges - due to its low density,
flammability, need for low temperatures to enable liquid hydrogen,...

I am aware there are studies for hydrogen tankers :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tanker

I am also aware tankers are already used for liquefied gas :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNG_carrier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas

"cooling it to approximately -162 °C (-260 °F).

The reduction in volume makes it much more cost efficient to transport over
long distances where pipelines do not exist."

---

Perhaps we could also use huge hydrogen flying Zeppelins to transport
hydrogen

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin ),

though due to its high flammability, only transport goods with it, and have
a limited crew with "escape" possibilities in case of a sudden explosion...

I also imagine that the "Captive Column" Marc mentions (
www.CaptiveColumn.com <http://www.captivecolumn.com/> )

could be used for the construction of , for example, certain parts of such
Zepplin ?

///

I also wish to study the Captive Column further.

Sounds interesting indeed for building windmills.

I am also interested in using it in the context of housing, or nomadic
housing :

http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe

///

What financial and legal models can we set up to support such approaches ?
Investing current mainstream energy in energy backed tokens ?
As with the "grok" which, to my current understanding, enables
investments/shares to serve as guarantee in an adapted mutual credit system
approach ?

see : http://regional-economic-communities.info/info/newsletters/2011-09-04/

And/or combined with some of Chris Cook's finance/legal models ?

see : http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook

///
[1]
"but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to energy
resource allocation." :

What information system is used ? Does it guarantee for a monetary monopoly
? are there distributed approaches possible ? can it guarantee for energy
backed resource allocation information systems in support of networked
cooperative production ? - note : Chris Cook may have a lot of experience in
relation to such questions.

I also remember some exchanges with Marc Fawzi, when brainstorming with him
around http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy )

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:51 PM, Mark Roest <marklroest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Dante and Darren,
>
> The inventor of the Bosch Captive Column structural system originally
> designed it to go past the state of the art in structures in the 1960s, for
> use in dirigibles which would bring hydrogen from offshore and remote
> on-shore wind farms to centers of use. He also invented an electrolyzer for
> separating the hydrogen, and the Poly-turbine windmill geometry, for
> minimizing the weight and enabling 300-foot diameters.
>
> You can see and learn about the Bosch Captive Column structural system and
> the Poly-turbine windmill geometry at www.CaptiveColumn.com. I met
> Lawrence Bosch in October of 1975, and worked with him for ten years. For
> deep sustainability, the columns and cores can be made of bamboo or kenaf
> (or fiberglass, corrugated corten steel, or graphite, produced using solar
> furnaces). The skins have been made with silk, brass-clad steel wire,
> fiberglass roving run through a resin bath and then a narrow eyelet to
> remove the excess resin, various sewing threads, glass-reinforced shipping
> tape, and aramid fiber (Kevlar).
>
> My first design exercise was for the square-rig masts and spars of the
> Dynaship sailing cargo ship proposal. I came up with 15,000 pounds for a
> 185-foot tall mast and its 90-foot spars -- vs 185,000 pounds in aluminum or
> 212,000 pounds in steel for the *badly* designed version a naval architect
> proposed. The design load was 15 million foot pounds of bending moment at
> the deck, in a 50-knot wind with all sails set.
>
> You might want to consider alternatives to the dominant 'conventional'
> engines of today. They are enormously expensive to purchase and maintain,
> and cost so much to overhaul that they are usually abandoned when they stop
> working. By supporting a coordinated effort to identify the most appropriate
> applications for the various sterling-cycle or other engines that use heat
> to vaporize a fluid, and for entirely different methods of producing and
> storing motive power or electricity (check Gizmag for a few), we can create
> policy proposals, correlated to market conditions mapped in geographic
> information systems, that can lead to a market-forced transportation
> transformation. (I met Tom Horst, who invented a steam engine drive unit
> that weighed 50 pounds, had 7 moving parts, and produced 200 brake
> horsepower at 2,000 rpm, with huge torque from zero rpm, using
> counter-rotating pistons in a toroidal chamber, in the 1980s; no car or
> truck manufacturer would touch it because it would obsolete their engine
> plants.)
>
> Larry and I explored the tension structures industry in the late 1970s and
> early 1980s; the Captive Column has been tested in column loading, with
> strength to weight ratio results ranging from 2,000 to 1 up to 5,000 to 1
> (using relatively short slenderness ratios). The lower end was made with a
> balsa wood segmented core, fiberglass pultrusion columns and
> glass-reinforced shipping tape for the skin! The upper end was a five-foot
> tall replacement for 1,200 pound criss-cross stacks of timbers for
> mine-shoring 'cribs' made of aluminum core and fiberglass columns and skin;
> it weighed 200 pounds and took a load of a million pounds at the Denver
> Bureau of Mines test center. If you look at the aircraft pontoon structure
> (double-tapered, about 5 feet across at the center) you can see that the
> slenderness ratio can be engineered to do whatever you need it to do to
> support heavy loads in a 'tent' -- whether it is for a small group, or for
> the equivalent of the Denver or Saudi airports.
>
> The products of the industrial fabric industry can last for decades in
> extreme climates. But a sustainable marketing process must also be developed
> to support the kinds of communities you envision. I have ideas for that as
> well.
>
> I have over 40 years of this kind of thinking ("There is no box!" -- Amory
> Lovins), and welcome working with you and others who have the Bucky bug. I
> imprinted on his concept of comprehensive design science in his lecture
> class at San Jose State University, in the spring semester of 1966.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark Roest
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Darren,
>>
>> I m interested.
>>
>> By the way, did you have a look into hydrogen powered stuff ? ( using
>> conventional engines ? )
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle#Internal_combustion_vehicle
>>
>> http://www.delicious.com/deliciousdante/hydrogencombustion
>>
>> ( though probably not hydroxi... )
>>
>> I imagine the hydrogen produced via electrolysis, using renewable energies
>> such as windmills ?
>>
>> //
>>
>> example :
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Darren Hill <mail at vegburner.co.uk>wrote:
>>
>>>  Hello Dante,
>>>
>>> I've lived on wheels for about half my adult life (4 years from the late
>>> eighties and for the last 7 years or so.  I've previously thought about
>>> similar ideas for a group of permacuture/sustainablity workers, but
>>> motorised, (self produced biofuel powered, of course) rather than cycle
>>> powered - can carry tools, materials from site to site.
>>>
>>> This also gels with a conversation I was just having about mobile housing
>>> on twitter, following the UK housing minister suggesting house boats being
>>> the answer to the housing crisis in the UK.
>>>
>>> Actually also just made me think of a very old Permaculture article -
>>> think it was in an old UK photocopied publication (early nineties,
>>> Permaculture Magazine?) - proposing sail catamaran dwelling nomadic
>>> communities.
>>>
>>> I've also been working on ideas for new land owning mutuals in the UK and
>>> was thinking that with enough land, mutuals could facilitate nomadic workers
>>> travelling from site to site doing seasonal work.  Existing UK planning
>>> regulations would allow 'temporary' structures for such workers.
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Darren
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28/08/2011 12:49, Dante-Gabryell Monson wrote:
>>>
>>> *Possibly some coalition people may be interested in developing such
>>> "semi-neo-nomadic" approach together with me ? :)*
>>> *
>>> *
>>>  *Feel free to edit - add - delete on this page :*
>>> *
>>> *
>>>  *http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe*<http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe>
>>>
>>>
>>>  More below...
>>>
>>>
>>>  ////
>>>
>>>  I ve personally lived a hitch hiking nomad lifestyle for a few years,
>>> and find a (semi?) nomad approach of interest ( also see :
>>> http://nomadology.com )
>>>
>>>  I am aware that there is at least one "cycling tribe" roaming in
>>> southern france.
>>>
>>>  Potentially
>>>
>>>  inter-related recent brainstormings below...
>>>
>>>  or here :
>>>
>>>  *" Vision : Semi-Nomad Healing Post-Industrial Tribes + Oasis "*
>>>
>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/Mq7w-b273OQ
>>>
>>>  *" Nomad Villages and Parametric Design - Modular Temporary Tensegrity
>>> Villages "*
>>>
>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/K1Ewe5rpfxs
>>>
>>>  *" Composite Architecture , Textile Buildings , Modular and Nomadic,
>>> Dimaxion House, Parametric Design, ... "*
>>>
>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/N1nt0JNsN7Y
>>>
>>>
>>>  ///
>>>
>>>
>>> via
>>>
>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/econowmix
>>>
>>>  RSS feed :
>>>
>>>  https://groups.google.com/group/econowmix/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml?num=50
>>>
>>>
>>>    On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brainstorming :
>>>>
>>>>  Emerging Tribes of (Cycling?) Nomads,
>>>>
>>>> with various "Specializations" and "Missions/Services",
>>>> while, each individual as entity capable of general/holistic
>>>> understanding and/co-learning.
>>>> and the tribe becoming very experienced in "Collective Intelligence" and
>>>> "Capability for Emergency Response",
>>>> along stigmergic tools and practices.
>>>>
>>>>  Type of potential mission :
>>>>
>>>>  Land healing consulting ; Land Permaculture Set up and consulting,
>>>> Modular ( tent ? ) constructions,
>>>> set up of post-industrial production infrastructure,
>>>> complementary finance and currency consulting, ... etc
>>>>
>>>>  ////
>>>>
>>>>  The tribe could be cycling across europe,
>>>> staying connected to the internet,
>>>> having "eclaireurs/scouts" charged of future mission preparations,
>>>> enabling certain decisions to be co-informed through technology and
>>>> general assemblies,
>>>> having rotating and self chosen tasks ( external mission tasks, but also
>>>> self preservation tasks such as operation of food and kitchen, shelter /
>>>> tent maintainance, bike maintainance, self-learning support, mutual-caring
>>>> support, etc )
>>>>
>>>>  ////
>>>>
>>>>  A permanently moving tribe, which can stay on missions in certain
>>>> places, such as "circuses" used to do,
>>>> while moving from north to southern europe, according to the seasons.
>>>>
>>>>  /////
>>>>
>>>>  Land would be put to disposal ( for camping - with special kinds of
>>>> comfortable and light weight "mobile villages" )
>>>> by the farmers or communities that wish to welcome the "nomads" and/or
>>>> employ them for their services.
>>>>
>>>>  ////
>>>>
>>>>  Money earned could go into maintaining the movement of the collective,
>>>> with surplus invested in setting up "oasis", which are the movements
>>>> more permanent "bases",
>>>> to which nomads can return to.
>>>>
>>>>  Investments can be made for infrastructure as to increase
>>>> progressively autonomy from dependencies on monopolistic economic networks /
>>>> support diversification,
>>>>
>>>>  and investments can also be made in the cheapest land ( within
>>>> potential for ideal context development )
>>>> on which value can then be created outside of monopolistic economic
>>>> networks.
>>>>
>>>>  ////
>>>>
>>>>  Hence a trans-modern approach to semi-nomadism,
>>>> such as the nomads who trade salt on their camels,
>>>> going on expeditions, and then returning to their oasis.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 3:02 PM
>>> Subject: Nomad Villages and Parametric Design - Modular Temporary
>>> Tensegrity Villages
>>> To: econowmix at googlegroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Additional Brainstorming :
>>>
>>>  I also imagine such villages of nomads
>>> using "modular" tent like structures, using "tensegrity"
>>> and "Parametric Design" with 3d modelling calculations,
>>> using data about future terrains that will be used for the temporary
>>> village,
>>> as to "re-assemble" the "tent village" based on all modular lightweight
>>> objects available,
>>> potential to include or add local materials and soil for temporary
>>> constructions,
>>> and calculate a re-design for a temporary village,
>>>
>>>  of which each of the modular components of the tents, which can also
>>> use tensegrity approaches,
>>>
>>>  are then re-calculated in their position,
>>> and where each modular element becomes a "spime" with its own uri (
>>> unique resource identifier ) allocated to the rfid ( magnetic ) tag of the
>>> object,
>>>
>>>  hence making it easy for any of the "builders" to follow assembling
>>> instructions from their smart phone, based on the re-assembly plans,
>>>
>>>  as to re-build customized villages ,
>>>
>>>  after they have been designed using "parametric design" and generative
>>> architecture softwares.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.google.be/search?sourceid=chrome&client=ubuntu&channel=cs&ie=UTF-8&q=parametric+design
>>>
>>>  also see this post :
>>>
>>>  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/N1nt0JNsN7Y
>>>
>>>  " Composite Architecture , Textile Buildings , Modular and Nomadic,
>>> Dimaxion House, Parametric Design, ..."
>>>  --
>>> -----------Coalition of the Willing-----------
>>> The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep
>>> the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
>>>
>>> For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That
>>> wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All
>>> group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus,
>>> channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation &
>>> keeping up-to-speed.
>>>
>>> "BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals,
>>> endorsing & signing up for work, and tracking tasks.
>>> https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163
>>> Share the film: http://cotw.me/film
>>> -----------------
>>> You are subscribed to coalition at googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe email coalition+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
>>> For more options http://groups.google.com/group/coalition?hl=en
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>> -----------Coalition of the Willing-----------
>>> The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep
>>> the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
>>>
>>> For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That
>>> wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All
>>> group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus,
>>> channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation &
>>> keeping up-to-speed.
>>>
>>> "BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals,
>>> endorsing & signing up for work, and tracking tasks.
>>> https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163
>>> Share the film: http://cotw.me/film
>>> -----------------
>>> You are subscribed to coalition at googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe email coalition+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
>>> For more options http://groups.google.com/group/coalition?hl=en
>>>
>>
>>  --
>> -----------Coalition of the Willing-----------
>> The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep
>> the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
>>
>> For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That
>> wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All
>> group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus,
>> channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation &
>> keeping up-to-speed.
>>
>> "BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals, endorsing
>> & signing up for work, and tracking tasks.
>> https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163
>> Share the film: http://cotw.me/film
>> -----------------
>> You are subscribed to coalition at googlegroups.com
>> To unsubscribe email coalition+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
>> For more options http://groups.google.com/group/coalition?hl=en
>>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/attachments/20110905/a0cace30/attachment.htm 