[P2P-F] Fw: Fw: Info

Mon Oct 24 15:30:03 CEST 2011

From: Chris Nelson 
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:27 AM
To: 10natalie at cox.net 
Subject: Re: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info

The old canard about diseased blankets: a tactic used in a few rare, isolated incidents, widely condemned at the time by everyone and never implemented as a general policy. And the loaded term "genocide" implies a conscious, concerted decision to annihilate an entire people, when in fact white-Indian conflicts in North America were entirely local or regional in nature, and Indian tribes frequently allied with the whites to dispossess rival tribes of land (e.g., Custer's scouts were Crows, who hated the Sioux more than the whites). Early federal policy, such as it was, was expulsion, not annihilation, and when westward expansion ran its course, the reservation system. Many reservations were indeed bad (after all, the federal government was administering them), but they were hardly concentration camps explicitly designed to systematically kill the inhabitants; they were meant to confine militant, nomadic peoples from ranging over occupied, cultivated land. Those Indians that were dealt with most harshly were the ones that were the most aggressive: plundering stock, killing settlers, etc. The ones who gave up their previously aggressive ways, like the Navajo, were pretty much left alone. The Indians treated each other with considerably more brutality than we treated them (think "Apocalypto"): unlike Indians, North Americans did not routinely enslave and torture. The comparison with South America is nonsensical: The Spanish and Portuguese had no interest in colonization, only in extracting mineral resources; there was thus no massive transplanted population of farmers vying for control of they land. And they were far more inhumane than the Anglo-Saxons, but simply lacked numerical superiority to make a sizable dent. 

-----"Natalie Golovin" <10natalie at cox.net> wrote: ----- 
  To: "Chris Nelson" <cnelson at computer.org>
  From: "Natalie Golovin" <10natalie at cox.net>
  Date: 10/23/2011 08:05AM
  Subject: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info

  I’m exhausted-help me with an answer to this please.

  From: Michel Bauwens 
  Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM
  To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
  Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info

  Hi Nalatie,

  I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression.

  Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.

  Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.

  Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.

  Michel

  On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:

    I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people
    live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land
    left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central
    America to move in and "homestead"
    The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each
    other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th
    centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when
    growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were
    also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this
    subject mp READ

    -----Original Message-----
    From: mp
    Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM
    To: p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org
    Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info

    borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin
    argues they should be open?

    On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
    > Agreed-that was easy.
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Kevin Carson
    > Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM
    > To: P2P Foundation mailing list
    > Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
    >
    > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<10natalie at cox.net>
    > wrote:
    >> Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of
    >> interplay
    >> among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup
    >> religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical
    >> knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today.
    >> I
    >> already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The
    >> interactions
    >> were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big
    >> exception-French&  Indian War) Spanish, French&  English migrants
    >> interacted
    >> very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about
    >> when economic&  political forces join hands.
    >
    > Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead
    > vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis.
    > What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property
    > of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds,
    > wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to
    > homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need
    > (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical
    > exploitation of the land.  The natives, in general, were usually
    > amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using --
    > I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using
    > vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native
    > citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican
    > national might like to move onto.
    >
    >> As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard
    >> Left
    >> friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about
    >> school,  get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls
    >> value
    >> family and love more than future prospects of good jobs&  I think that's
    >> fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years&
    >> understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
    >
    > I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone
    > would get bent out of shape by that.  Anyone who wants to bully girls
    > like that into having abortions against their own judgment or
    > inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum:  the
    > world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day
    > and minded their own goddamned business.
    >

    --
    NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...

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