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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=Cnelson@computer.org
href="mailto:Cnelson@computer.org">Chris Nelson</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 24, 2011 5:27 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=10natalie@cox.net
href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net">10natalie@cox.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info</DIV></DIV></DIV>
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size=2 face="Default Sans Serif,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">The old
canard about diseased blankets: a tactic used in a few rare, isolated incidents,
widely condemned at the time by everyone and never implemented as a general
policy. And the loaded term "genocide" implies a conscious, concerted decision
to annihilate an entire people, when in fact white-Indian conflicts in North
America were entirely local or regional in nature, and Indian tribes frequently
allied with the whites to dispossess rival tribes of land (e.g., Custer's scouts
were Crows, who hated the Sioux more than the whites). Early federal policy,
such as it was, was expulsion, not annihilation, and when westward expansion ran
its course, the reservation system. Many reservations were indeed bad (after
all, the federal government was administering them), but they were hardly
concentration camps explicitly designed to systematically kill the inhabitants;
they were meant to confine militant, nomadic peoples from ranging over occupied,
cultivated land. Those Indians that were dealt with most harshly were the ones
that were the most aggressive: plundering stock, killing settlers, etc. The ones
who gave up their previously aggressive ways, like the Navajo, were pretty much
left alone. The Indians treated each other with considerably more brutality than
we treated them (think "Apocalypto"): unlike Indians, North Americans did not
routinely enslave and torture. The comparison with South America is nonsensical:
The Spanish and Portuguese had no interest in colonization, only in extracting
mineral resources; there was thus no massive transplanted population of farmers
vying for control of they land. And they were far more inhumane than the
Anglo-Saxons, but simply lacked numerical superiority to make a sizable dent.
<BR><BR><FONT color=#990099>-----"Natalie Golovin" <10natalie@cox.net>
wrote: -----</FONT>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: black 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">To:
"Chris Nelson" <cnelson@computer.org><BR>From: "Natalie Golovin"
<10natalie@cox.net><BR>Date: 10/23/2011 08:05AM<BR>Subject: Fw: [P2P-F]
Fw: Info<BR><BR>
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<DIV>I’m exhausted-help me with an answer to this please.</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=michel@p2pfoundation.net
href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">Michel Bauwens</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">P2P Foundation mailing
list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Hi
Nalatie,<BR><BR>I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and
that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare
and oppression.<BR><BR>Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of
this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist
dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there
was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in
tr<B>ibuta</B>ry systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.<BR><BR>Even
within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in
Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American
natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The
Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the
same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of
how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as
technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide
matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.<BR><BR>Also
you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he
has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack
of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh
discussions.<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net">10natalie@cox.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I
mentioned earlier-people<BR>live in their own times. It's the 21st century
and there is no vacant land<BR>left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US
citizens or those from Central<BR>America to move in and "homestead"<BR>The
European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated
each<BR>other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th
& 18th<BR>centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains
wars when<BR>growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got
involved. There were<BR>also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers.
I'm finished with this<BR>subject mp READ<BR>
<DIV>
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<DIV class=h5><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: mp<BR>Sent:
Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</A><BR>Subject:
Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info<BR><BR><BR>borders? Thought you wanted them
polices/militarized, whereas Kevin<BR>argues they should be open?<BR><BR>On
22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:<BR>> Agreed-that was
easy.<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: Kevin
Carson<BR>> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM<BR>> To: P2P
Foundation mailing list<BR>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw:
Info<BR>><BR>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<<A
href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net">10natalie@cox.net</A>><BR>>
wrote:<BR>>> Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250
years of<BR>>> interplay<BR>>> among various groups of both
tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup<BR>>> religions) at a time
when communication/transportation and historical<BR>>> knowledge re
different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today.<BR>>>
I<BR>>> already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths.
The<BR>>> interactions<BR>>> were very diverse and many mostly
local until the mid 19th Century (Big<BR>>>
exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English
migrants<BR>>> interacted<BR>>> very differently with the
tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about<BR>>> when
economic& political forces join hands.<BR>><BR>> Actually, I
don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead<BR>> vacant
land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis.<BR>> What I
was responding to was your suggestion that the common property<BR>> of
nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds,<BR>>
wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to<BR>>
homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need<BR>>
(the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical<BR>>
exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were
usually<BR>> amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't
actually using --<BR>> I don't think they had a collective right to
exclude people from using<BR>> vacant land they weren't using themselves,
any more than native<BR>> citizens today have a collective ownership over
land that a Mexican<BR>> national might like to move
onto.<BR>><BR>>> As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in
trouble with my Hard<BR>>> Left<BR>>> friends when I side with
the young Hispanic girls who don't care about<BR>>> school, get
pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls<BR>>>
value<BR>>> family and love more than future prospects of good
jobs& I think that's<BR>>> fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile
Detention center for a couple of years&<BR>>> understand the
problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.<BR>><BR>> I
consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone<BR>>
would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully
girls<BR>> like that into having abortions against their own judgment
or<BR>> inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's
dictum: the<BR>> world would be a better place if everybody smoked
a joint every day<BR>> and minded their own goddamned
business.<BR>><BR><BR>--<BR>NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone -
'cause I like
birds...<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
Foundation - Mailing list<BR><A href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net/"
target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
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target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
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target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
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target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>P2P Foundation: <A href="http://p2pfoundation.net/"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.net</A> - <A
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/"
target=_blank>http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</A> <BR><BR>Connect: <A
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<DIV><BR>Updates: <A href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens"
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