[P2P-F] Fw: Fw: Info

Mon Oct 24 17:46:01 CEST 2011

Referring to a film by Mel Gibson!

On 24/10/11 14:30, Natalie Golovin wrote:
>
>
> From: Chris Nelson Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:27 AM To:
> 10natalie at cox.net Subject: Re: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>
> The old canard about diseased blankets: a tactic used in a few rare,
> isolated incidents, widely condemned at the time by everyone and
> never implemented as a general policy. And the loaded term "genocide"
> implies a conscious, concerted decision to annihilate an entire
> people, when in fact white-Indian conflicts in North America were
> entirely local or regional in nature, and Indian tribes frequently
> allied with the whites to dispossess rival tribes of land (e.g.,
> Custer's scouts were Crows, who hated the Sioux more than the
> whites). Early federal policy, such as it was, was expulsion, not
> annihilation, and when westward expansion ran its course, the
> reservation system. Many reservations were indeed bad (after all, the
> federal government was administering them), but they were hardly
> concentration camps explicitly designed to systematically kill the
> inhabitants; they were meant to confine militant, nomadic peoples
> from ranging over occupied, cultivated land. Those Indians that were
> dealt with most harshly were the ones that were the most aggressive:
> plundering stock, killing settlers, etc. The ones who gave up their
> previously aggressive ways, like the Navajo, were pretty much left
> alone. The Indians treated each other with considerably more
> brutality than we treated them (think "Apocalypto"): unlike Indians,
> North Americans did not routinely enslave and torture. The comparison
> with South America is nonsensical: The Spanish and Portuguese had no
> interest in colonization, only in extracting mineral resources; there
> was thus no massive transplanted population of farmers vying for
> control of they land. And they were far more inhumane than the
> Anglo-Saxons, but simply lacked numerical superiority to make a
> sizable dent.
>
> -----"Natalie Golovin"<10natalie at cox.net>  wrote: ----- To: "Chris
> Nelson"<cnelson at computer.org> From: "Natalie
> Golovin"<10natalie at cox.net> Date: 10/23/2011 08:05AM Subject: Fw:
> [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>
>
> I’m exhausted-help me with an answer to this please.
>
> From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM To: P2P
> Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>
> Hi Nalatie,
>
> I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that
> there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent
> warfare and oppression.
>
> Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near
> genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist
> dynamics which were historically different. In most other
> civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the
> rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in
> place.
>
> Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the
> Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim
> wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were
> integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were
> undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale
> as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease
> was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique
> of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide
> matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
>
> Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me,
> I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences
> do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient
> amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin<10natalie at cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned
> earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and
> there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US
> citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The
> European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each
> other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th&
> 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains
> wars when growing Federal power&  powerful economic interests got
> involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and
> farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011
> 6:27 AM To: p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org Subject: Re: [P2P-F]
> Fw: Info
>
>
> borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin
> argues they should be open?
>
> On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
>> Agreed-that was easy.
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October
>> 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re:
>> [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie
>> Golovin<10natalie at cox.net> wrote:
>>> Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years
>>> of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating
>>> Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when
>>> communication/transportation and historical knowledge re
>>> different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I
>>> already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The
>>> interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the
>>> mid 19th Century (Big exception-French&   Indian War) Spanish,
>>> French&   English migrants interacted very differently with the
>>> tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic&
>>> political forces join hands.
>>
>> Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to
>> homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an
>> individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that
>> the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it
>> as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European
>> settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on
>> the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or
>> more efficient technical exploitation of the land.  The natives, in
>> general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they
>> weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right
>> to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using
>> themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective
>> ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move
>> onto.
>>
>>> As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with
>>> my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls
>>> who don't care about school,  get pregnant in early teens and
>>> refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than
>>> future prospects of good jobs&   I think that's fine. BTW I
>>> worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years&
>>> understand the problems of growing up poor in rough
>>> neighborhoods.
>>
>> I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone
>> would get bent out of shape by that.  Anyone who wants to bully
>> girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment
>> or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum:
>> the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every
>> day and minded their own goddamned business.
>>
>
> -- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
>
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NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...