[P2P-F] Libertarians

Wed Oct 19 04:35:01 CEST 2011

If a dictator then abolishes the constitution, you will have no liberties
and will be unable to remove the dictator because liberties are only given
by the state and are not inherent.

Would you then try to break the laws of your nation to brink back democracy?
If you answer yes, why would you do that if your nation tells you its not
your right to decide which liberties you should have(liberties are given
after all by the nation)?

2011/10/19 Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>

>   Convoluted  I'm a human citizen of the US which through its Constitution
> grants its citizens a certain set of rights & privileges. It has 3
> branches-Executive, Legislative & Judicial and a border that is "generally"
> respected and would be defended militarily if aggressively attacked. I
> consider myself fortunate to be a citizen of a country that confers human
> rights on its citizens- a rare thing. A human without a nation has no
> rights-privileges or security.
>
>  *From:* Xekoukoulotakis Apostolos <xekoukou at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:47 PM
> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
> *Cc:* P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Libertarians
>
>  As I tried to point out before being a libertarian means protecting the
> liberties of all people, otherwise a dictator could be a libertarian. If one
> thinks that nations do not allow people to have the same liberties , like an
> immigrant or an american citizen , then he might be right but he surely is
> not libertarian.
>
> But should I adress you Natalie as an American or as a human? Do your
> liberties derive as a consequence of your american heritage or is it because
> you are human?
>
> And how does a nation has more privileges than another? Who gave it the
> priviledges to begin with?
> Who decided whose property is each thing in the world?
> Aren't all people equal in their effort to pursue their happiness?
>
> Can we own things?
> We can only loan things in an equalitarian way so that each person has
> equal opportunity in life. To this end, noone should disallow the
> unprivileged a better life because nothing makes someone better than
> another.
>
> But when was the word nation first started to be used with the current
> meaning? Did  private property as a concept always exist?
>
> 19 oct. 2011, 02:58, ο/η "Natalie Golovin" <10natalie at cox.net> έγραψε:
>
>    Thank you Devin. While I appreciate Kevin's sincerity-I see him in an
> alternate universe. If it came to fruition, I think the unintended
> consequences would be a "Mad Max" world of gang violence as opinions wavered
> on the legitimacy of Big D or little d rights/privileges depending on the
> location &moment- or govt imposed tyranny. Nation States exist, and they
> have borders that are much more than mathematical crosshairs on the globe.
> You can't throw away thousands of years of civilizations' attempt to codify
> property and human rights & obligations. The best we can do is
> encourage/support individuals to be more responsible citizens (of their
> respective nations)which includes reining in the corrupt
> govt/corporatist/military collusion that restrains all our progress.
>
>  *From:* Devin Balkind <devin at sarapisfoundation.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:42 AM
> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Libertarians
>
> Just some quick thoughts:
>
> Michel - I'd imagine -  would rather the government have all the guns and
> trust that they'll use them to enforce equality than to have faith in the
> people and their capacity to organize.
>
> If you have communautarian feelings then express them through actions - not
> taxes.
>
> Ron Paul finds the federal government an unacceptable entity to force
> people to use their private property in a particular way.  I might disagree
> with the extent to which he applies his philosophy but I respect it enough
> not to demonize it.
>
> Every nation has a unique history and identity.  I think we should
> encourage political differentiation within the framework of increasing
> people's access to technologies that enable them to escape coercion by
> becoming more self sufficient.
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <<michel at p2pfoundation.net>
> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>
>> I think that this is the heart of the matter and an obvious difference
>> between 'left' and 'right' approaches'
>>
>> it's really about how far you extend the circle of care .. for
>> right-minded people it's nearly always about 'just for us' and they can have
>> deep communautarian feelings (except probably for committed
>> anarcho-capitalists who only believe in individual contracting and full
>> commodification of all things), by contrast the left wants to extend it. ron
>> paul finds it acceptable to refuse entry to black people on the basis of
>> property rights, something no person on the left could tolerate ... natalie
>> explicetely rejects the quest for equality even thought the revolt against
>> inequality is at the heart of this movement .. but we can find commonality
>> around freedom ..
>>
>> though of course, freedom without equality is a chimera, as you need a gun
>> to protect you from your neighbour ...
>>
>> and the greatest the differential, the greater number of guns needed (now
>> nearly a quarter of the workforce ?)
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulot cakis <<xekoukou at gmail.com>
>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>    That is what a conservative libertarian would say. ''Protect the
>>> liberty of a certain group of people, for example the american people. This
>>> is how the greek athenian democrarcry worked as well. It wars a democracy
>>> for menr. But if we start thinking about liberty to a set of people we end
>>> up with the conclusion that everyone is a libertarian (take as a set only
>>> yourself ). That would make the use of the word libertarian unnecessary (as
>>> we all are libertarians). Since the word is used to differentiate between
>>> people, we end up through *Reductio ad absurdum *that your defintion of
>>> libertarian is wrong.
>>> We also end up with the conclusion that you are not a libertarian.
>>>
>>> As a personal remark, I would say that such a wrong definition of
>>> libertarian was always used as an excuse to diminish the liberties of
>>> others.
>>>
>>> (reading math.. right now)
>>>
>>> 2011/10/17 Natalie Golovin < <10natalie at cox.net>10natalie at cox.net>
>>>
>>>>   Nations still exist. You can be a libertarian with regards to the
>>>> rights/responsibilities/privileges/policies of your own citizens wo
>>>> extending them to the universal
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>
>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
> --
> Devin Balkind
> Director, Sarapis Foundation
> <devin at sarapisfoundation.org>devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> @devinbalkind
>
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-- 

Sincerely yours,

     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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