[P2P-F] Libertarians

Wed Oct 19 03:42:00 CEST 2011

Convoluted  I’m a human citizen of the US which through its Constitution grants its citizens a certain set of rights & privileges. It has 3 branches-Executive, Legislative & Judicial and a border that is “generally” respected and would be defended militarily if aggressively attacked. I consider myself fortunate to be a citizen of a country that confers human rights on its citizens- a rare thing. A human without a nation has no rights-privileges or security.

From: Xekoukoulotakis Apostolos 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:47 PM
To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
Cc: P2P Foundation mailing list 
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Libertarians

As I tried to point out before being a libertarian means protecting the liberties of all people, otherwise a dictator could be a libertarian. If one thinks that nations do not allow people to have the same liberties , like an immigrant or an american citizen , then he might be right but he surely is not libertarian. 

But should I adress you Natalie as an American or as a human? Do your liberties derive as a consequence of your american heritage or is it because you are human?

And how does a nation has more privileges than another? Who gave it the priviledges to begin with?
Who decided whose property is each thing in the world?
Aren't all people equal in their effort to pursue their happiness?

Can we own things? 
We can only loan things in an equalitarian way so that each person has equal opportunity in life. To this end, noone should disallow the unprivileged a better life because nothing makes someone better than another. 

But when was the word nation first started to be used with the current meaning? Did  private property as a concept always exist?

19 oct. 2011, 02:58, ο/η "Natalie Golovin" <10natalie at cox.net> έγραψε:

  Thank you Devin. While I appreciate Kevin’s sincerity-I see him in an alternate universe. If it came to fruition, I think the unintended consequences would be a “Mad Max” world of gang violence as opinions wavered on the legitimacy of Big D or little d rights/privileges depending on the location &moment- or govt imposed tyranny. Nation States exist, and they have borders that are much more than mathematical crosshairs on the globe. You can’t throw away thousands of years of civilizations’ attempt to codify property and human rights & obligations. The best we can do is encourage/support individuals to be more responsible citizens (of their respective nations)which includes reining in the corrupt govt/corporatist/military collusion that restrains all our progress.

  From: Devin Balkind 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:42 AM
  To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
  Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Libertarians

  Just some quick thoughts:

  Michel - I'd imagine -  would rather the government have all the guns and trust that they'll use them to enforce equality than to have faith in the people and their capacity to organize.

  If you have communautarian feelings then express them through actions - not taxes.

  Ron Paul finds the federal government an unacceptable entity to force people to use their private property in a particular way.  I might disagree with the extent to which he applies his philosophy but I respect it enough not to demonize it.  

  Every nation has a unique history and identity.  I think we should encourage political differentiation within the framework of increasing people's access to technologies that enable them to escape coercion by becoming more self sufficient.

  On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:

    I think that this is the heart of the matter and an obvious difference between 'left' and 'right' approaches' 

    it's really about how far you extend the circle of care .. for right-minded people it's nearly always about 'just for us' and they can have deep communautarian feelings (except probably for committed anarcho-capitalists who only believe in individual contracting and full commodification of all things), by contrast the left wants to extend it. ron paul finds it acceptable to refuse entry to black people on the basis of property rights, something no person on the left could tolerate ... natalie explicetely rejects the quest for equality even thought the revolt against inequality is at the heart of this movement .. but we can find commonality around freedom .. 

    though of course, freedom without equality is a chimera, as you need a gun to protect you from your neighbour ...

    and the greatest the differential, the greater number of guns needed (now nearly a quarter of the workforce ?)

    Michel

    On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulot cakis <xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:

         That is what a conservative libertarian would say. ''Protect the liberty of a certain group of people, for example the american people. This is how the greek athenian democrarcry worked as well. It wars a democracy for menr. But if we start thinking about liberty to a set of people we end up with the conclusion that everyone is a libertarian (take as a set only yourself ). That would make the use of the word libertarian unnecessary (as we all are libertarians). Since the word is used to differentiate between people, we end up through Reductio ad absurdum that your defintion of libertarian is wrong. 
      We also end up with the conclusion that you are not a libertarian.

      As a personal remark, I would say that such a wrong definition of libertarian was always used as an excuse to diminish the liberties of others.

      (reading math.. right now)

      2011/10/17 Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>

        Nations still exist. You can be a libertarian with regards to the rights/responsibilities/privileges/policies of your own citizens wo extending them to the universal

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Sincerely yours,      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis

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