[P2P-F] Libertarians

Wed Oct 19 01:51:20 CEST 2011

my conviction is the state is a bit like the ego or money ... you can be
against it, but that doesn't make it disappear ... So then the question
becomes, what do we do it ... My answer would be democratize it to the
maximum extent, take it over and transform it when you can, and finally
replace it through autonomous practices ...

the attitude of the state has also to be kept in balance with the existence
of exploitative ruling classes .. to some degree, institutions like the
state, the law, etc.. are also a protection of the non-rulers .. in fact,
historically, things like social welfare, regulation, environmental
protection, have been demands of the people, not gifts.

often, right-wing libertarians ally themselves with the rulers, only
abolishing those aspects of the state which favour the majority ..

why is it that high tax periods were better for the majority of the people
(compare 45-74 to 80-2010), or that high tax countries are so much better on
almost all accounts (compare scandinavia to the third world conditions in
the US); high taxes on speculative actions, accumulated wealth are
beneficial to the majority of the public, let's tax the bads, break the
corporate stronghold on the state, make the state a partner state at the
service of civil society .. such a state, in the hands of the people, would
strive to abolish itself

Michel

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 1:42 AM, Devin Balkind
<devin at sarapisfoundation.org>wrote:

> Just some quick thoughts:
>
> Michel - I'd imagine -  would rather the government have all the guns and
> trust that they'll use them to enforce equality than to have faith in the
> people and their capacity to organize.
>
> If you have communautarian feelings then express them through actions - not
> taxes.
>
> Ron Paul finds the federal government an unacceptable entity to force
> people to use their private property in a particular way.  I might disagree
> with the extent to which he applies his philosophy but I respect it enough
> not to demonize it.
>
> Every nation has a unique history and identity.  I think we should
> encourage political differentiation within the framework of increasing
> people's access to technologies that enable them to escape coercion by
> becoming more self sufficient.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>wrote:
>
>> I think that this is the heart of the matter and an obvious difference
>> between 'left' and 'right' approaches'
>>
>> it's really about how far you extend the circle of care .. for
>> right-minded people it's nearly always about 'just for us' and they can have
>> deep communautarian feelings (except probably for committed
>> anarcho-capitalists who only believe in individual contracting and full
>> commodification of all things), by contrast the left wants to extend it. ron
>> paul finds it acceptable to refuse entry to black people on the basis of
>> property rights, something no person on the left could tolerate ... natalie
>> explicetely rejects the quest for equality even thought the revolt against
>> inequality is at the heart of this movement .. but we can find commonality
>> around freedom ..
>>
>> though of course, freedom without equality is a chimera, as you need a gun
>> to protect you from your neighbour ...
>>
>> and the greatest the differential, the greater number of guns needed (now
>> nearly a quarter of the workforce ?)
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulot cakis <
>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>    That is what a conservative libertarian would say. ''Protect the
>>> liberty of a certain group of people, for example the american people. This
>>> is how the greek athenian democrarcry worked as well. It wars a democracy
>>> for menr. But if we start thinking about liberty to a set of people we end
>>> up with the conclusion that everyone is a libertarian (take as a set only
>>> yourself ). That would make the use of the word libertarian unnecessary (as
>>> we all are libertarians). Since the word is used to differentiate between
>>> people, we end up through *Reductio ad absurdum *that your defintion of
>>> libertarian is wrong.
>>> We also end up with the conclusion that you are not a libertarian.
>>>
>>> As a personal remark, I would say that such a wrong definition of
>>> libertarian was always used as an excuse to diminish the liberties of
>>> others.
>>>
>>> (reading math.. right now)
>>>
>>> 2011/10/17 Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>
>>>
>>>>   Nations still exist. You can be a libertarian with regards to the
>>>> rights/responsibilities/privileges/policies of your own citizens wo
>>>> extending them to the universal
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>
>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Devin Balkind
> Director, Sarapis Foundation
> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> @devinbalkind
>
>
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