<div>my conviction is the state is a bit like the ego or money ... you can be against it, but that doesn't make it disappear ... So then the question becomes, what do we do it ... My answer would be democratize it to the maximum extent, take it over and transform it when you can, and finally replace it through autonomous practices ...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>the attitude of the state has also to be kept in balance with the existence of exploitative ruling classes .. to some degree, institutions like the state, the law, etc.. are also a protection of the non-rulers .. in fact, historically, things like social welfare, regulation, environmental protection, have been demands of the people, not gifts.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>often, right-wing libertarians ally themselves with the rulers, only abolishing those aspects of the state which favour the majority ..</div>
<div> </div>
<div>why is it that high tax periods were better for the majority of the people (compare 45-74 to 80-2010), or that high tax countries are so much better on almost all accounts (compare scandinavia to the third world conditions in the US); high taxes on speculative actions, accumulated wealth are beneficial to the majority of the public, let's tax the bads, break the corporate stronghold on the state, make the state a partner state at the service of civil society .. such a state, in the hands of the people, would strive to abolish itself</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Michel</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 1:42 AM, Devin Balkind <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org">devin@sarapisfoundation.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Just some quick thoughts:<br><br>Michel - I'd imagine - would rather the government have all the guns and trust that they'll use them to enforce equality than to have faith in the people and their capacity to organize.<br>
<br>If you have communautarian feelings then express them through actions - not taxes.<br><br>Ron Paul finds the federal government an unacceptable entity to force people to use their private property in a particular way. I might disagree with the extent to which he applies his philosophy but I respect it enough not to demonize it. <br>
<br>Every nation has a unique history and identity. I think we should encourage political differentiation within the framework of increasing people's access to technologies that enable them to escape coercion by becoming more self sufficient.
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="h5"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">I think that this is the heart of the matter and an obvious difference between 'left' and 'right' approaches' <br>
<br>it's really about how far you extend the circle of care .. for right-minded people it's nearly always about 'just for us' and they can have deep communautarian feelings (except probably for committed anarcho-capitalists who only believe in individual contracting and full commodification of all things), by contrast the left wants to extend it. ron paul finds it acceptable to refuse entry to black people on the basis of property rights, something no person on the left could tolerate ... natalie explicetely rejects the quest for equality even thought the revolt against inequality is at the heart of this movement .. but we can find commonality around freedom ..
<div><br></div>
<div>though of course, freedom without equality is a chimera, as you need a gun to protect you from your neighbour ...<br> </div>
<div>and the greatest the differential, the greater number of guns needed (now nearly a quarter of the workforce ?)</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Michel</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulot cakis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:xekoukou@gmail.com" target="_blank">xekoukou@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"> That is what a conservative libertarian would say. ''Protect the liberty of a certain group of people, for example the american people. This is how the greek athenian democrarcry worked as well. It wars a democracy for menr. But if we start thinking about liberty to a set of people we end up with the conclusion that everyone is a libertarian (take as a set only yourself ). That would make the use of the word libertarian unnecessary (as we all are libertarians). Since the word is used to differentiate between people, we end up through <span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><b style="FONT-STYLE: italic">Reductio ad absurdum </b>that your defintion of libertarian is wrong. </span>
<div>
<div><font face="sans-serif"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px">We also end up with the conclusion that you are not a libertarian.</span></font></div>
<div><font face="sans-serif"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px"><br></span></font></div>
<div><font face="sans-serif"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px">As a personal remark, I would say that such a wrong definition of libertarian was always used as an excuse to diminish the liberties of others.</span></font></div>
<div><font face="sans-serif"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px"><br></span></font></div>
<div><font face="sans-serif"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px">(reading math.. right now)<br></span></font>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2011/10/17 Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'">
<div>Nations still exist. You can be a libertarian with regards to the rights/responsibilities/privileges/policies of your own citizens wo extending them to the universal</div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<div><br></div>-- <br><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><pre><br></pre><pre>Sincerely yours, </pre><pre> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre></span><br></font></div></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br></div></div><font color="#888888">Devin Balkind<br>Director, Sarapis Foundation
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