[P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge

Michel Bauwens michel at p2pfoundation.net
Tue Nov 29 10:29:30 CET 2011 

hi devin, absolutely did not mean to be condenscending, I swear,  but I was
expressing a deep unease I have, and i'm not the only one, with what with I
consider anarcho-capitalism, 'as a movement or ideology', not in any way
with persons in the movement, they are decent persons in nearly any social
movement independent of our level of agreement with it; I'm absolutely sure
that you are such a person,

Michel

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Devin Balkind
<devin at sarapisfoundation.org>wrote:

> Natalie, we need to advance p2p within the liberty community and liberty
> within the p2p community.  More concretely, we need to show folks how p2p
> production takes place in a state of liberty and a state of liberty
> provides the conditions necessary for p2p production.
>
> Michel, maybe I misinterpreted the certainty in your tone with
> condescension.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>wrote:
>
>> hi devin, not at all, I don't recognize that my tone is condenscending,
>> if it appears that way, I apologize ... I'm merely saying that despite
>> looking for commonalities, political and value conflicts cannot be wished
>> away  ... what part of the paragraphs below do you find condescending? it's
>> basically a list of ron paul's positions I don't agree with
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Devin Balkind <
>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this way
>>> because you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan political
>>> conflicts.  I don't.  I find it endlessly frustrating.
>>>
>>> I'm going to repeat the demands I've posted here many times before: (1)
>>> end the wars and dismantle the American empire, (2) end drug prohibition,
>>> (3) end the federal reserve bank's monopoly on the production of legal
>>> tender.
>>>
>>> Nader gets it:
>>> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progressive-libertarian-alliance/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody
>>>> needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of
>>>> non-representational individuals
>>>>
>>>> but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in
>>>> any of the ows actions or pronouncements ...
>>>>
>>>> there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr
>>>> Natalie's "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's
>>>> interpret things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist
>>>> would accept refusing access to different races on private property
>>>> grounds...
>>>>
>>>> from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a
>>>> progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent
>>>> of what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the
>>>> stress is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt
>>>> takeover of corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are
>>>> against consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea
>>>> party action I saw mentioned somewhere)
>>>>
>>>> now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it,
>>>>
>>>> for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official
>>>> paulista demands
>>>>
>>>>  Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind <
>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who do you think keeps camps running?  People who demand things from
>>>>> government, or people who demand things from themselves?
>>>>>
>>>>> OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing
>>>>> to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> hi Devin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy
>>>>>> Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying
>>>>>> on corporate media like Fox News
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of
>>>>>> them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to
>>>>>> restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of
>>>>>> education,  abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers,
>>>>>> etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these
>>>>>> videos,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views
>>>>>> unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of
>>>>>> course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are
>>>>>> impossible
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind <
>>>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is such an old paradigm conversation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to
>>>>>>> them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this
>>>>>>> person."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each
>>>>>>> other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this
>>>>>>> mess.  It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed
>>>>>>> production from taking place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight
>>>>>>> out of the progressive media press releases.  Do some independent
>>>>>>> research.  Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and
>>>>>>> the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely
>>>>>>> terrible and need to end.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked
>>>>>>>> up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I
>>>>>>>> fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line
>>>>>>>> with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their
>>>>>>>> preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an
>>>>>>>> Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still
>>>>>>>> tyranny-and all in the name of a better society.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM
>>>>>>>> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End
>>>>>>>> the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hi natalie,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say,
>>>>>>>> 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I
>>>>>>>> have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one
>>>>>>>> ..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists
>>>>>>>>> illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many
>>>>>>>>> cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a
>>>>>>>>> Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people
>>>>>>>>> because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal
>>>>>>>>> relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting
>>>>>>>>> for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS
>>>>>>>>> protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than
>>>>>>>>> full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a
>>>>>>>>> mockery-just another kind of segregation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can
>>>>>>>>> End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <
>>>>>>>>> christian at siefkes.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <
>>>>>>>>>> christian at siefkes.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster
>>>>>>>>>> your goals?
>>>>>>>>>> >> > Where do you draw the line?
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely
>>>>>>>>>> 'anti-p2p' forces
>>>>>>>>>> > such as racism, genderism, etc ..
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating
>>>>>>>>>> others as
>>>>>>>>>> your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic,
>>>>>>>>>> sexist,
>>>>>>>>>> anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their
>>>>>>>>>> participation is
>>>>>>>>>> likely do to more bad than good.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own
>>>>>>>>>> bodies (while,
>>>>>>>>>> of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in
>>>>>>>>>> doubt), hence it
>>>>>>>>>> is equally 'anti-p2p'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this
>>>>>>>>> as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with
>>>>>>>>> catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing
>>>>>>>>> proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property
>>>>>>>>> etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism ..
>>>>>>>>> of course, I disagree with this,  but I find it has little practical
>>>>>>>>> importance in the cooperation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free
>>>>>>>>>> software, and you
>>>>>>>>>> > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with
>>>>>>>>>> her?
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of
>>>>>>>>>> libertarians, whose
>>>>>>>>>> > values I object to ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible
>>>>>>>>>> more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his
>>>>>>>>>> insights
>>>>>>>>>> about free software.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>;
>>>>>>>>> the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving
>>>>>>>>> the whole population ..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little
>>>>>>>>>> piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me
>>>>>>>>>> from using
>>>>>>>>>> his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him,
>>>>>>>>>> of course.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own
>>>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>>> problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project.
>>>>>>>>>> But on the
>>>>>>>>>> other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such
>>>>>>>>>> standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is
>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>> anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party"
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> proposing to do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party
>>>>>>>>> organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force;
>>>>>>>>> but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source
>>>>>>>>> libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they
>>>>>>>>> are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation
>>>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>>> project would cause black people to leave to product, or
>>>>>>>>>> discourage them
>>>>>>>>>> from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it
>>>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>>>> the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the
>>>>>>>>>> situation. I hope we
>>>>>>>>>> agree on that?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> yes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the
>>>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>>> > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals,
>>>>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>>>>> seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea
>>>>>>>>>> Party--near
>>>>>>>>>> candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such
>>>>>>>>>> alliances
>>>>>>>>>> will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase
>>>>>>>>>> acceptance
>>>>>>>>>> for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the
>>>>>>>>> like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I
>>>>>>>>> respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal
>>>>>>>>> political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key
>>>>>>>>> goals
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and
>>>>>>>>> maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may
>>>>>>>>> become strained
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>>>>        Christian
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- christian at siefkes.net-------
>>>>>>>>>> | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.keimform.de/
>>>>>>>>>> |    Peer Production Everywhere:
>>>>>>>>>> http://peerconomy.org/wiki/
>>>>>>>>>> |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --
>>>>>>>>>> It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible
>>>>>>>>>> for us to
>>>>>>>>>> live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of
>>>>>>>>>> thousands of
>>>>>>>>>> children each day from curable diseases. The existence of
>>>>>>>>>> capitalism is
>>>>>>>>>> conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ...
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the
>>>>>>>>>> pain of
>>>>>>>>>> the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the
>>>>>>>>>> dulling of
>>>>>>>>>> feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible.
>>>>>>>>>>        -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
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>>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Devin Balkind
>>>>>>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>>>>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>>>>>>> @devinbalkind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Devin Balkind
>>>>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>>>>> @devinbalkind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Devin Balkind
>>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>>> @devinbalkind
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Devin Balkind
> Director, Sarapis Foundation
> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> @devinbalkind
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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