[P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
Devin Balkind
devinbalkind at gmail.com
Tue Nov 29 18:21:48 CET 2011
Michel, I consider you a "decent" person as well, even though I find
your statist political philosophy objectionable.
I think it's unfortunate that this thread, which could have lead to a
conversation about how we leverage shifting political attitudes to
advance the p2p movement, turned partisan. So it goes.
DWB
On Nov 29, 2011, at 4:29 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
wrote:
> hi devin, absolutely did not mean to be condenscending, I swear,
> but I was expressing a deep unease I have, and i'm not the only one,
> with what with I consider anarcho-capitalism, 'as a movement or
> ideology', not in any way with persons in the movement, they are
> decent persons in nearly any social movement independent of our
> level of agreement with it; I'm absolutely sure that you are such a
> person,
>
> Michel
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Devin Balkind <devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> > wrote:
> Natalie, we need to advance p2p within the liberty community and
> liberty within the p2p community. More concretely, we need to show
> folks how p2p production takes place in a state of liberty and a
> state of liberty provides the conditions necessary for p2p production.
>
> Michel, maybe I misinterpreted the certainty in your tone with
> condescension.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net
> > wrote:
> hi devin, not at all, I don't recognize that my tone is
> condenscending, if it appears that way, I apologize ... I'm merely
> saying that despite looking for commonalities, political and value
> conflicts cannot be wished away ... what part of the paragraphs
> below do you find condescending? it's basically a list of ron paul's
> positions I don't agree with
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Devin Balkind <devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> > wrote:
> I assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this
> way because you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan
> political conflicts. I don't. I find it endlessly frustrating.
>
> I'm going to repeat the demands I've posted here many times before:
> (1) end the wars and dismantle the American empire, (2) end drug
> prohibition, (3) end the federal reserve bank's monopoly on the
> production of legal tender.
>
> Nader gets it: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progressive-libertarian-alliance/
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net
> > wrote:
>
> I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody
> needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a
> movement of non-representational individuals
>
> but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in
> any of the ows actions or pronouncements ...
>
> there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr
> Natalie's "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some
> Paulista's interpret things in different ways ... I don't believe
> any left anarchist would accept refusing access to different races
> on private property grounds...
>
> from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a
> progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement
> (independent of what you and I think about whether that's a good
> thing or not); and the stress is about the corporate takeover of
> government, not the governmennt takeover of corporations (tea
> party); the black friday ows actions are against consumption
> culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party action I
> saw mentioned somewhere)
>
> now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it,
>
> for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official
> paulista demands
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind <devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> > wrote:
> ... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.
>
> Who do you think keeps camps running? People who demand things from
> government, or people who demand things from themselves?
>
> OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest
> thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net
> > wrote:
> hi Devin,
>
> I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy
> Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not
> relying on corporate media like Fox News
>
> BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of
> them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
>
> for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to
> restaurants because they are property, advocating a total
> privatisation of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for
> having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for
> progressive media,
>
> in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these
> videos,
>
> Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views
> unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with
> ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete
> questions are impossible
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind <devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> > wrote:
> This is such an old paradigm conversation.
>
> First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to
> them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support
> this person."
>
> Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each
> other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in
> this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of
> much needed production from taking place.
>
> Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight
> out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent
> research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism
> and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't
> absolutely terrible and need to end.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin
> <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:
> Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve
> picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts.
> The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles polit
> ical control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging
> people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious soci
> al atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the
> mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a bett
> er society.
>
> From: Michel Bauwens
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM
> To: P2P Foundation mailing list
> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the
> Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
>
> hi natalie,
>
> I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say,
> 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic
> slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not
> seen a single one ..
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>
> wrote:
> Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists
> illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First,
> in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’”
> In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude
> people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line
> with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for
> a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been m
> any Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they a
> re there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of s
> peech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segr
> egation.
>
> From: Michel Bauwens
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM
> To: P2P Foundation mailing list
> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the
> Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <christian at siefkes.net
> > wrote:
> Michel Bauwens wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <christian at siefkes.net
> >wrote:
> >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster
> your goals?
> >> > Where do you draw the line?
> >
> > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p'
> forces
> > such as racism, genderism, etc ..
>
> Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating
> others as
> your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic,
> sexist,
> anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their
> participation is
> likely do to more bad than good.
>
> Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies
> (while,
> of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt),
> hence it
> is equally 'anti-p2p'.
>
>
> well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as
> an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with
> catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support
> distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives
> without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of
> their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find
> it has little practical importance in the cooperation
>
> > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free
> software, and you
> > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
> >
> > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of
> libertarians, whose
> > values I object to ...
>
> I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible
> more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his
> insights
> about free software.
>
> they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>;
> the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts
> involving the whole population ..
>
>
> Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little
> piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views:
> http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop
> me from using
> his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of
> course.
>
> So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a
> problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But
> on the
> other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such
> standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what
> anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is
> proposing to do.
>
> I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party
> organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political
> force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open
> source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of
> claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
>
> And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a
> project would cause black people to leave to product, or
> discourage them
> from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it
> would be
> the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I
> hope we
> agree on that?
>
> yes
>
>
>
> > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3
> > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
>
> "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals,
> and it
> seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea
> Party--near
> candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such
> alliances
> will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase
> acceptance
> for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
>
>
> ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the
> like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance,
> though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by
> eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad
> commonality on a few key goals
>
> at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and
> maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality
> may become strained
>
> Michel
>
>
>
> Best regards
> Christian
>
> --
> |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- christian at siefkes.net -------
> | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/
> | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/
> |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --
> It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for
> us to
> live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of
> thousands of
> children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism
> is
> conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that
> enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the
> pain of
> the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the
> dulling of
> feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible.
> -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
>
>
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> Devin Balkind
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> @devinbalkind
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