[P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge

Mon Nov 28 19:23:13 CET 2011

Natalie, we need to advance p2p within the liberty community and liberty
within the p2p community.  More concretely, we need to show folks how p2p
production takes place in a state of liberty and a state of liberty
provides the conditions necessary for p2p production.

Michel, maybe I misinterpreted the certainty in your tone with
condescension.

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>wrote:

> hi devin, not at all, I don't recognize that my tone is condenscending, if
> it appears that way, I apologize ... I'm merely saying that despite looking
> for commonalities, political and value conflicts cannot be wished away  ...
> what part of the paragraphs below do you find condescending? it's basically
> a list of ron paul's positions I don't agree with
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Devin Balkind <
> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> I assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this way
>> because you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan political
>> conflicts.  I don't.  I find it endlessly frustrating.
>>
>> I'm going to repeat the demands I've posted here many times before: (1)
>> end the wars and dismantle the American empire, (2) end drug prohibition,
>> (3) end the federal reserve bank's monopoly on the production of legal
>> tender.
>>
>> Nader gets it:
>> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progressive-libertarian-alliance/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody
>>> needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of
>>> non-representational individuals
>>>
>>> but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any
>>> of the ows actions or pronouncements ...
>>>
>>> there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's
>>> "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret
>>> things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would
>>> accept refusing access to different races on private property grounds...
>>>
>>> from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a
>>> progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent
>>> of what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the
>>> stress is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt
>>> takeover of corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are
>>> against consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea
>>> party action I saw mentioned somewhere)
>>>
>>> now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it,
>>>
>>> for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official
>>> paulista demands
>>>
>>>  Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind <
>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.
>>>>
>>>> Who do you think keeps camps running?  People who demand things from
>>>> government, or people who demand things from themselves?
>>>>
>>>> OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing
>>>> to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> hi Devin,
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now
>>>>> in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on
>>>>> corporate media like Fox News
>>>>>
>>>>> BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of
>>>>> them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
>>>>>
>>>>> for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to
>>>>> restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of
>>>>> education,  abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers,
>>>>> etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,
>>>>>
>>>>> in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these
>>>>> videos,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views
>>>>> unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of
>>>>> course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are
>>>>> impossible
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind <
>>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is such an old paradigm conversation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to
>>>>>> them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this
>>>>>> person."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other
>>>>>> because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess.
>>>>>> It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed
>>>>>> production from taking place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight
>>>>>> out of the progressive media press releases.  Do some independent
>>>>>> research.  Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and
>>>>>> the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely
>>>>>> terrible and need to end.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up
>>>>>>> on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I
>>>>>>> fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line
>>>>>>> with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their
>>>>>>> preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an
>>>>>>> Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still
>>>>>>> tyranny-and all in the name of a better society.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM
>>>>>>> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End
>>>>>>> the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hi natalie,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say,
>>>>>>> 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I
>>>>>>> have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one
>>>>>>> ..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists
>>>>>>>> illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many
>>>>>>>> cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a
>>>>>>>> Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people
>>>>>>>> because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal
>>>>>>>> relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting
>>>>>>>> for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS
>>>>>>>> protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than
>>>>>>>> full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a
>>>>>>>> mockery-just another kind of segregation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM
>>>>>>>> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End
>>>>>>>> the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <
>>>>>>>> christian at siefkes.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <
>>>>>>>>> christian at siefkes.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster
>>>>>>>>> your goals?
>>>>>>>>> >> > Where do you draw the line?
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p'
>>>>>>>>> forces
>>>>>>>>> > such as racism, genderism, etc ..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating
>>>>>>>>> others as
>>>>>>>>> your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist,
>>>>>>>>> anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their
>>>>>>>>> participation is
>>>>>>>>> likely do to more bad than good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies
>>>>>>>>> (while,
>>>>>>>>> of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt),
>>>>>>>>> hence it
>>>>>>>>> is equally 'anti-p2p'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this
>>>>>>>> as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with
>>>>>>>> catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing
>>>>>>>> proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property
>>>>>>>> etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism ..
>>>>>>>> of course, I disagree with this,  but I find it has little practical
>>>>>>>> importance in the cooperation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free
>>>>>>>>> software, and you
>>>>>>>>> > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with
>>>>>>>>> her?
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of
>>>>>>>>> libertarians, whose
>>>>>>>>> > values I object to ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible
>>>>>>>>> more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his
>>>>>>>>> insights
>>>>>>>>> about free software.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>;
>>>>>>>> the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving
>>>>>>>> the whole population ..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little
>>>>>>>>> piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me
>>>>>>>>> from using
>>>>>>>>> his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of
>>>>>>>>> course.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own
>>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>> problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But
>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>> other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such
>>>>>>>>> standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party"
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> proposing to do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party
>>>>>>>> organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force;
>>>>>>>> but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source
>>>>>>>> libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they
>>>>>>>> are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation
>>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>> project would cause black people to leave to product, or
>>>>>>>>> discourage them
>>>>>>>>> from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it
>>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>>> the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation.
>>>>>>>>> I hope we
>>>>>>>>> agree on that?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> yes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3
>>>>>>>>> > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals,
>>>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>>>> seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea
>>>>>>>>> Party--near
>>>>>>>>> candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such
>>>>>>>>> alliances
>>>>>>>>> will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase
>>>>>>>>> acceptance
>>>>>>>>> for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the
>>>>>>>> like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I
>>>>>>>> respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal
>>>>>>>> political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key
>>>>>>>> goals
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and
>>>>>>>> maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may
>>>>>>>> become strained
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>>>        Christian
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- christian at siefkes.net-------
>>>>>>>>> | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.keimform.de/
>>>>>>>>> |    Peer Production Everywhere:       http://peerconomy.org/wiki/
>>>>>>>>> |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --
>>>>>>>>> It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>> us to
>>>>>>>>> live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> children each day from curable diseases. The existence of
>>>>>>>>> capitalism is
>>>>>>>>> conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ...
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the
>>>>>>>>> pain of
>>>>>>>>> the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the
>>>>>>>>> dulling of
>>>>>>>>> feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible.
>>>>>>>>>        -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
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>>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
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>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Devin Balkind
>>>>>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>>>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>>>>>> @devinbalkind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>
>>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Devin Balkind
>>>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>>>> @devinbalkind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
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>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Devin Balkind
>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>> @devinbalkind
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>
>>
>
>
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>
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-- 
Devin Balkind
Director, Sarapis Foundation
devin at sarapisfoundation.org
@devinbalkind
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