[P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was: "corporateperson")

Natalie Golovin 10natalie at cox.net
Fri Nov 25 15:01:24 CET 2011


Love It-Great Post!

From: Devin Balkind 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:58 PM
To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was: "corporateperson")

Can we please unpack the term 'profits'?  'Profits' are 'money' and right now the production of money is monopolized by an international banking cartel.  

If corporations are the 'engine' of mis-allocation then the monetary system is the fuel that runs that engine, the politicians are behind the wheel, the military is sitting in the passenger seat with a shotgun ready to blow out the politicians brains if they change directions, the economist is sitting in the back seat reading the map upside down next to the priest with his eyes closed praying that the car stops so he can run for the hill.  The general public is hog-tied in the truck and everyone is listening to pop radio.

The military will shoot anyone in the car who tries to change it's direction, but they don't have many options if the car runs out of gas.

The Fed is the gas station.  End the Fed.


On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:

  Damage to the environment is an externality that can be addressed (nothing is perfect) through taxes & subsidies. Capturing/measuring the costs is often difficult and relies on current technologies and legal structures. Poverty & inequality are in different categories and no “system” can eradicate them. Scarcity of resources and risk-taking play major roles in allocation, and choices become skewed as decisions are controlled by govt policies, religion, culture & personal ethics. Consider the simple example of providing HIV drugs to poor populations. Lengthening lives results in the infection of many more individuals unless the culture “buys in” to prevention like condom use. Profits pay for the returns to risk in bringing a product to market. Once a product successfully hits the street, competitors are encouraged until a dynamic equilibrium is reached and in the long-run profit is roughly equivalent to the interest rate plus depreciation. Today we have nothing close to that due to cartels, monopoly behavior, collusion, FED manipulation of interest rates, insufficient or over-regulation & favoritism etc. etc.,, all now made more complex on a global scale.
  Short Run vs Long Run & Individual vs Group considerations also interfere with desired results. Granted, things are a horrible, F’ed Up mess and there’s lots of criminal behavior going on, but you can’t blame it all on “seeking profits” Prices and profits are just signals. 
  From: Michel Bauwens 
  Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:13 PM
  To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
  Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was: "corporateperson")

  natalie: ideology aside, do you have any evidence for the efficient allocation of resources,

  are you aware of the damage being done to the environment, on rising inequality, on persistent povery and hunger in the world?

  in actual fact, corporations are the engine of systematic misallocation of resources, and precisely because of the profit maximisation logic,

  I recommend reading peter barnes' capitalism 3.0 (but especially his new upcoming book), and kelly's divine right of capital,

  Michel


  On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 4:48 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:

    As to examples..I believe Kaiser Permanente is a model for cost-savings in
    the health care industry and also highly rated in patient outcomes It's
    essentially a not-for-profit Co-op of Doctors.
    As to general corporations, I don't see anything wrong with profit as a
    concept that motivates efficient allocation of resources. The problems arise
    from the time horizons & how the profits are dispersed.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: mrc
    Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:07 AM
    To: P2P Foundation mailing list
    Cc: Patrick Anderson
    Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was:
    "corporateperson")


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    On 11/23/2011 05:30 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:
    > Michel Bauwens wrote:
    >> much better is to change the DNA and
    >> not make them profit maximizers
    >
    > It *is* possible to change the DNA (or 'goals')
    > of corporations

    do you know any who'd let their legal advantadges derived of their
    "corporation" status ?

    (i'd like to know more about in comparision with the cooperative or
    association status for example) some examples


    i.e. get to use an account from our bank accounts sharing world network
    for fundraising for your project.

    i.e.2.
    get to use our legal number for doing your construction work if you
    invest what you get from that job in a 'nice' project (aproved without
    too much burocracy by us) (we won't tax you much)

    i.e.3.
    is there an activists' activities insurance 'bigsomething' ? one that we
    could use for granting projects developments (i.e. some works for the
    state i.e. software implementations in the public administration is
    taken by i.e. novell(SUSELinux) and then passed from them, after taxing
    it, to a local subcontracted companies because the state papers asks you
    for having a big economic activity and insurance)
    (that was a real case that happened to 'me' while trying to get those
    jobs for other more free local free software communities. ended with:
    novell getting the job, people at schools misusing opensuse linux, it
    could go wrong so probably after no more free software proposed by the
    local goverment )


    i.e.4. flash moneylender (i.e. at some cases you need to show you have
    5000 $ for setting up a cooperative, you could withdraw that money the
    day after, but you need to show that)

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-- 
Devin Balkind
Director, Sarapis Foundation 
devin at sarapisfoundation.org
@devinbalkind




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