[P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was: "corporateperson")

Fri Nov 25 09:25:11 CET 2011

well said, and I certainly think the present privatized Fed should be
abolished.

I'm agnostic as to the necessity of a democratic monetary authority and
personally think it may be a transitional necessity, to protect against
fully privatized banking

so a democratic national banking authority, in a context of monetary
pluralism, with international cooperative governance, would seem like a
good combination  to me

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Devin Balkind <devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> wrote:

> Can we please unpack the term 'profits'?  'Profits' are 'money' and right
> now the production of money is monopolized by an international banking
> cartel.
>
> If corporations are the 'engine' of mis-allocation then the monetary
> system is the fuel that runs that engine, the politicians are behind the
> wheel, the military is sitting in the passenger seat with a shotgun ready
> to blow out the politicians brains if they change directions, the economist
> is sitting in the back seat reading the map upside down next to the priest
> with his eyes closed praying that the car stops so he can run for the
> hill.  The general public is hog-tied in the truck and everyone is
> listening to pop radio.
>
> The military will shoot anyone in the car who tries to change it's
> direction, but they don't have many options if the car runs out of gas.
>
> The Fed is the gas station.  End the Fed.
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>wrote:
>
>>   Damage to the environment is an externality that can be addressed
>> (nothing is perfect) through taxes & subsidies. Capturing/measuring the
>> costs is often difficult and relies on current technologies and legal
>> structures. Poverty & inequality are in different categories and no
>> “system” can eradicate them. Scarcity of resources and risk-taking play
>> major roles in allocation, and choices become skewed as decisions are
>> controlled by govt policies, religion, culture & personal ethics. Consider
>> the simple example of providing HIV drugs to poor populations. Lengthening
>> lives results in the infection of many more individuals unless the culture
>> “buys in” to prevention like condom use. Profits pay for the returns to
>> risk in bringing a product to market. Once a product successfully hits the
>> street, competitors are encouraged until a dynamic equilibrium is reached
>> and in the long-run profit is roughly equivalent to the interest rate plus
>> depreciation. Today we have nothing close to that due to cartels, monopoly
>> behavior, collusion, FED manipulation of interest rates, insufficient or
>> over-regulation & favoritism etc. etc.,, all now made more complex on a
>> global scale.
>> Short Run vs Long Run & Individual vs Group considerations also interfere
>> with desired results. Granted, things are a horrible, F’ed Up mess and
>> there’s lots of criminal behavior going on, but you can’t blame it all on
>> “seeking profits” Prices and profits are just signals.
>>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:13 PM
>> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was:
>> "corporateperson")
>>
>> natalie: ideology aside, do you have any evidence for the efficient
>> allocation of resources,
>>
>> are you aware of the damage being done to the environment, on rising
>> inequality, on persistent povery and hunger in the world?
>>
>> in actual fact, corporations are the engine of systematic misallocation
>> of resources, and precisely because of the profit maximisation logic,
>>
>> I recommend reading peter barnes' capitalism 3.0 (but especially his new
>> upcoming book), and kelly's divine right of capital,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 4:48 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>wrote:
>>
>>> As to examples..I believe Kaiser Permanente is a model for cost-savings
>>> in
>>> the health care industry and also highly rated in patient outcomes It's
>>> essentially a not-for-profit Co-op of Doctors.
>>> As to general corporations, I don't see anything wrong with profit as a
>>> concept that motivates efficient allocation of resources. The problems
>>> arise
>>> from the time horizons & how the profits are dispersed.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mrc
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:07 AM
>>> To: P2P Foundation mailing list
>>> Cc: Patrick Anderson
>>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was:
>>> "corporateperson")
>>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> On 11/23/2011 05:30 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:
>>> > Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>> >> much better is to change the DNA and
>>> >> not make them profit maximizers
>>> >
>>> > It *is* possible to change the DNA (or 'goals')
>>> > of corporations
>>>
>>> do you know any who'd let their legal advantadges derived of their
>>> "corporation" status ?
>>>
>>> (i'd like to know more about in comparision with the cooperative or
>>> association status for example) some examples
>>>
>>>
>>> i.e. get to use an account from our bank accounts sharing world network
>>> for fundraising for your project.
>>>
>>> i.e.2.
>>> get to use our legal number for doing your construction work if you
>>> invest what you get from that job in a 'nice' project (aproved without
>>> too much burocracy by us) (we won't tax you much)
>>>
>>> i.e.3.
>>> is there an activists' activities insurance 'bigsomething' ? one that we
>>> could use for granting projects developments (i.e. some works for the
>>> state i.e. software implementations in the public administration is
>>> taken by i.e. novell(SUSELinux) and then passed from them, after taxing
>>> it, to a local subcontracted companies because the state papers asks you
>>> for having a big economic activity and insurance)
>>> (that was a real case that happened to 'me' while trying to get those
>>> jobs for other more free local free software communities. ended with:
>>> novell getting the job, people at schools misusing opensuse linux, it
>>> could go wrong so probably after no more free software proposed by the
>>> local goverment )
>>>
>>>
>>> i.e.4. flash moneylender (i.e. at some cases you need to show you have
>>> 5000 $ for setting up a cooperative, you could withdraw that money the
>>> day after, but you need to show that)
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Devin Balkind
> Director, Sarapis Foundation
> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> @devinbalkind
>
>
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