[P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was: "corporateperson")

Fri Nov 25 06:58:52 CET 2011

Can we please unpack the term 'profits'?  'Profits' are 'money' and right
now the production of money is monopolized by an international banking
cartel.

If corporations are the 'engine' of mis-allocation then the monetary system
is the fuel that runs that engine, the politicians are behind the wheel,
the military is sitting in the passenger seat with a shotgun ready to blow
out the politicians brains if they change directions, the economist is
sitting in the back seat reading the map upside down next to the priest
with his eyes closed praying that the car stops so he can run for the
hill.  The general public is hog-tied in the truck and everyone is
listening to pop radio.

The military will shoot anyone in the car who tries to change it's
direction, but they don't have many options if the car runs out of gas.

The Fed is the gas station.  End the Fed.

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:

>   Damage to the environment is an externality that can be addressed
> (nothing is perfect) through taxes & subsidies. Capturing/measuring the
> costs is often difficult and relies on current technologies and legal
> structures. Poverty & inequality are in different categories and no
> “system” can eradicate them. Scarcity of resources and risk-taking play
> major roles in allocation, and choices become skewed as decisions are
> controlled by govt policies, religion, culture & personal ethics. Consider
> the simple example of providing HIV drugs to poor populations. Lengthening
> lives results in the infection of many more individuals unless the culture
> “buys in” to prevention like condom use. Profits pay for the returns to
> risk in bringing a product to market. Once a product successfully hits the
> street, competitors are encouraged until a dynamic equilibrium is reached
> and in the long-run profit is roughly equivalent to the interest rate plus
> depreciation. Today we have nothing close to that due to cartels, monopoly
> behavior, collusion, FED manipulation of interest rates, insufficient or
> over-regulation & favoritism etc. etc.,, all now made more complex on a
> global scale.
> Short Run vs Long Run & Individual vs Group considerations also interfere
> with desired results. Granted, things are a horrible, F’ed Up mess and
> there’s lots of criminal behavior going on, but you can’t blame it all on
> “seeking profits” Prices and profits are just signals.
>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:13 PM
> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was:
> "corporateperson")
>
> natalie: ideology aside, do you have any evidence for the efficient
> allocation of resources,
>
> are you aware of the damage being done to the environment, on rising
> inequality, on persistent povery and hunger in the world?
>
> in actual fact, corporations are the engine of systematic misallocation of
> resources, and precisely because of the profit maximisation logic,
>
> I recommend reading peter barnes' capitalism 3.0 (but especially his new
> upcoming book), and kelly's divine right of capital,
>
> Michel
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 4:48 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>wrote:
>
>> As to examples..I believe Kaiser Permanente is a model for cost-savings in
>> the health care industry and also highly rated in patient outcomes It's
>> essentially a not-for-profit Co-op of Doctors.
>> As to general corporations, I don't see anything wrong with profit as a
>> concept that motivates efficient allocation of resources. The problems
>> arise
>> from the time horizons & how the profits are dispersed.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mrc
>> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:07 AM
>> To: P2P Foundation mailing list
>> Cc: Patrick Anderson
>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was:
>> "corporateperson")
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 11/23/2011 05:30 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:
>> > Michel Bauwens wrote:
>> >> much better is to change the DNA and
>> >> not make them profit maximizers
>> >
>> > It *is* possible to change the DNA (or 'goals')
>> > of corporations
>>
>> do you know any who'd let their legal advantadges derived of their
>> "corporation" status ?
>>
>> (i'd like to know more about in comparision with the cooperative or
>> association status for example) some examples
>>
>>
>> i.e. get to use an account from our bank accounts sharing world network
>> for fundraising for your project.
>>
>> i.e.2.
>> get to use our legal number for doing your construction work if you
>> invest what you get from that job in a 'nice' project (aproved without
>> too much burocracy by us) (we won't tax you much)
>>
>> i.e.3.
>> is there an activists' activities insurance 'bigsomething' ? one that we
>> could use for granting projects developments (i.e. some works for the
>> state i.e. software implementations in the public administration is
>> taken by i.e. novell(SUSELinux) and then passed from them, after taxing
>> it, to a local subcontracted companies because the state papers asks you
>> for having a big economic activity and insurance)
>> (that was a real case that happened to 'me' while trying to get those
>> jobs for other more free local free software communities. ended with:
>> novell getting the job, people at schools misusing opensuse linux, it
>> could go wrong so probably after no more free software proposed by the
>> local goverment )
>>
>>
>> i.e.4. flash moneylender (i.e. at some cases you need to show you have
>> 5000 $ for setting up a cooperative, you could withdraw that money the
>> day after, but you need to show that)
>>
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-- 
Devin Balkind
Director, Sarapis Foundation
devin at sarapisfoundation.org
@devinbalkind
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