<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Love It-Great Post!</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=devin@sarapisfoundation.org
href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org">Devin Balkind</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:58 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">P2P Foundation mailing
list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was:
"corporateperson")</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Can
we please unpack the term 'profits'? 'Profits' are 'money' and right now
the production of money is monopolized by an international banking cartel.
<BR><BR>If corporations are the 'engine' of mis-allocation then the monetary
system is the fuel that runs that engine, the politicians are behind the wheel,
the military is sitting in the passenger seat with a shotgun ready to blow out
the politicians brains if they change directions, the economist is sitting in
the back seat reading the map upside down next to the priest with his eyes
closed praying that the car stops so he can run for the hill. The general
public is hog-tied in the truck and everyone is listening to pop
radio.<BR><BR>The military will shoot anyone in the car who tries to change it's
direction, but they don't have many options if the car runs out of
gas.<BR><BR>The Fed is the gas station. End the Fed.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Natalie Golovin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net"
target=_blank>10natalie@cox.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Damage to the environment is an externality that can be addressed
(nothing is perfect) through taxes & subsidies. Capturing/measuring the
costs is often difficult and relies on current technologies and legal
structures. Poverty & inequality are in different categories and no
�system� can eradicate them. Scarcity of resources and risk-taking play major
roles in allocation, and choices become skewed as decisions are controlled by
govt policies, religion, culture & personal ethics. Consider the simple
example of providing HIV drugs to poor populations. Lengthening lives results
in the infection of many more individuals unless the culture �buys in� to
prevention like condom use. Profits pay for the returns to risk in bringing a
product to market. Once a product successfully hits the street, competitors
are encouraged until a dynamic equilibrium is reached and in the long-run
profit is roughly equivalent to the interest rate plus depreciation. Today we
have nothing close to that due to cartels, monopoly behavior, collusion, FED
manipulation of interest rates, insufficient or over-regulation &
favoritism etc. etc.,, all now made more complex on a global scale.</DIV>
<DIV>Short Run vs Long Run & Individual vs Group considerations also
interfere with desired results. Granted, things are a horrible, F�ed Up mess
and there�s lots of criminal behavior going on, but you can�t blame it all on
�seeking profits� Prices and profits are just signals.
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=michel@p2pfoundation.net
href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target=_blank>Michel Bauwens</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:13 PM</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target=_blank>P2P Foundation
mailing list</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was:
"corporateperson")</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>natalie: ideology aside, do you have any evidence for the efficient
allocation of resources,<BR><BR>are you aware of the damage being done to the
environment, on rising inequality, on persistent povery and hunger in the
world?<BR><BR>in actual fact, corporations are the engine of systematic
misallocation of resources, and precisely because of the profit maximisation
logic,<BR><BR>I recommend reading peter barnes' capitalism 3.0 (but especially
his new upcoming book), and kelly's divine right of
capital,<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 4:48 AM, Natalie Golovin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net"
target=_blank>10natalie@cox.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>As to examples..I believe Kaiser Permanente is a model for
cost-savings in<BR>the health care industry and also highly rated in patient
outcomes It's<BR>essentially a not-for-profit Co-op of Doctors.<BR>As to
general corporations, I don't see anything wrong with profit as a<BR>concept
that motivates efficient allocation of resources. The problems arise<BR>from
the time horizons & how the profits are dispersed.<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: mrc<BR>Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:07
AM<BR>To: P2P Foundation mailing list<BR>Cc: Patrick Anderson<BR>Subject:
Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was:<BR>"corporateperson")<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<BR>Hash: SHA1<BR><BR>On
11/23/2011 05:30 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:<BR>> Michel Bauwens
wrote:<BR>>> much better is to change the DNA and<BR>>> not make
them profit maximizers<BR>><BR>> It *is* possible to change the DNA
(or 'goals')<BR>> of corporations<BR><BR>do you know any who'd let their
legal advantadges derived of their<BR>"corporation" status ?<BR><BR>(i'd
like to know more about in comparision with the cooperative
or<BR>association status for example) some examples<BR><BR><BR>i.e. get to
use an account from our bank accounts sharing world network<BR>for
fundraising for your project.<BR><BR>i.e.2.<BR>get to use our legal number
for doing your construction work if you<BR>invest what you get from that job
in a 'nice' project (aproved without<BR>too much burocracy by us) (we won't
tax you much)<BR><BR>i.e.3.<BR>is there an activists' activities insurance
'bigsomething' ? one that we<BR>could use for granting projects developments
(i.e. some works for the<BR>state i.e. software implementations in the
public administration is<BR>taken by i.e. novell(SUSELinux) and then passed
from them, after taxing<BR>it, to a local subcontracted companies because
the state papers asks you<BR>for having a big economic activity and
insurance)<BR>(that was a real case that happened to 'me' while trying to
get those<BR>jobs for other more free local free software communities. ended
with:<BR>novell getting the job, people at schools misusing opensuse linux,
it<BR>could go wrong so probably after no more free software proposed by
the<BR>local goverment )<BR><BR><BR>i.e.4. flash moneylender (i.e. at some
cases you need to show you have<BR>5000 $ for setting up a cooperative, you
could withdraw that money the<BR>day after, but you need to show
that)<BR><BR>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<BR>Version: GnuPG v1.4.10
(GNU/Linux)<BR>Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - <A
href="http://enigmail.mozdev.org/"
target=_blank>http://enigmail.mozdev.org/</A><BR><BR>iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOzpXUAAoJEAlfUArKi+ECYLkIAIHfwsF/7Pc8N9FZNjHnMQK7<BR>oVt5itM5P+3tlJMi7xu1TDi1eHLsIs8Jl5i2FqdNN1M6wHxLYWH8V3jIabfoIr5w<BR>SZwRUGHNgRYcBiDMKkz31qoMrM/TBTdNHIUomX3b4v9igkSrzcjnhAimaBOC3WoW<BR>zXFYyj8ejDhR5uW8GIyCQHMGQx2chiZ77XL/TQAIGL0sI+F0RcSJI63FzlF3dlSs<BR>SNB+sKbjOnohG85hW/G5Ejph5+5tH6EZX1KZGLqtN5ZqvXPDMd8DCatbF4ZmpQcn<BR>SbdAKBdYzKlAkAG4eiXrxnGJih+xyNFb9kVbIv60UtLyp3QHNVcduEg14bfnMYI=<BR>=Mfdt<BR>-----END
PGP
SIGNATURE-----<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
Foundation - Mailing list<BR><A href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
Foundation - Mailing list<BR><A href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>P2P Foundation: <A href="http://p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.net</A> - <A
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</A> <BR><BR>Connect: <A
href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</A>; Discuss: <A
href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A>
<DIV><BR>Updates: <A href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</A>; <A
href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</A>; <A
href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://twitter.com/mbauwens</A>; <A
href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<HR>
<DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P Foundation -
Mailing list<BR><A href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
Foundation - Mailing list<BR><A href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Devin Balkind<BR>Director, Sarapis Foundation
<DIV><A href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org"
target=_blank>devin@sarapisfoundation.org</A><BR>@devinbalkind</DIV><BR>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>P2P Foundation - Mailing
list<BR>http://www.p2pfoundation.net<BR>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>