[P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the Institutional Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek, Now Can They Overthrow Robert Michels?
Michael Gurstein
gurstein at gmail.com
Wed Mar 2 13:14:14 CET 2011
Hi Michel, Pedro and everyone,
I really don't want to launch into an on-going discussion of epistemologies
here but I think that much of sociology and sociological (read network in
this instance) analysis (now) suffers from precisely the same sets of issues
as those of classical economics i.e. that once one accepts certain
assumptions everything else flows forward with a smooth consistency until
the system confronts reality and then the whole thing is demonstrated as
being the ideological mind game that it is...
The necessary process of reconstruction has to begin either from a
philosophical or a practical critique of those assumptions (the best
situation is when both are done at the same time)...
Accepting these "approaches" as "theoretical insights" is I think rather in
the form of choosing a particularly insightful monetarist theory to explain
and thus provide a strategy in response to the recent/current financial
crisis--the problem isn't in the theory but in the assumptions (and thus the
overall conceptual structure) on which it is based.
So, to my mind looking for insights useful to for example the p2p project in
network analysis leads inevitably to the profoundly disempowering, cynical
and ultimately ideological and wrong headed (and misdirectional) analysis
that Zeynab's "analysis" presents.
M
-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Bauwens [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 6:31 PM
To: Michael Gurstein
Cc: P2P Foundation mailing list; Pedro Gioya; Dougald Hine; Paul B. Hartzog
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the
Institutional Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek,
Now Can They Overthrow Robert Michels?
Hi Michael,
I completelely agree with the critique of the reductionist aspects of
network theory, which removes human intentionality from its considerations.
Nevertheless, even from our point of view of human emancipation and how to
get there, seeing that some structures and network topologies are more
likely than others to result in hierarchical solidification, is of paramount
interest.
Seen in this way, network theory insights, divorced from their philosopical
reductionism, can be very useful,
But you are right, people like Martin Luther King or Gandhi didn't ask
themselves, what are all the reasons why we will fail, but how can we
overcome the obstacles,
Michel
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Michel,
Thanks very much for the below and I must confess to not having read the
comments on Zeynep's original post. I found the comments, particularly those
of "Parliament of Things" more or less directly parallel to my own thoughts.
I've never had a lot of interest in network analysis or network
theory--thinking about it. I realize that the reason for this is that to my
mind network analysis is a way of avoiding class or (in my case) community
analysis where the issues are not simply about analysis but also about
social change ("networks" are to "communities" (or P2P?) as "social and
economic status" (SES) is to "class"--I go into this in a bit more depth in
my little book "What is Community Informatics..."
http://www.docstoc.com/MyDocuments/ ("Networks" in this approach, at least
as presented in "network analysis" are statistical constructs a la SES and
bear little relationship to the lived world of real networks, P2P
associations, communities or whatever...
The issue is not, I think, some "iron law" (or statistical regularity) but
rather what it is that one wants to do and what the best way is of
accomplishing it. If one wants the opportunity for democratic participation
then there are potential means for achieving this and examples where it has
been done. If one believes that P2P relationships are the necessary
underpinnings for democratic participation then one can work through ways of
realizing these. Of course after the fact it is possible to design analyses
that show why one or another approach is more or less useful in achieving
the goal (or not), but the pragmatics of moving forward toward the objective
are, as several of your commentators pointed to, rather more in the hands of
the participants than they are constrained by any kind of social
behaviourism.
(But maybe that's why I stopped being an academic sociologist 20 years ago
or so... :-)
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Bauwens [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:00 AM .
To: P2P Foundation mailing list
Cc: Pedro Gioya; Michael Gurstein; Dougald Hine; Paul B. Hartzog
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the
Institutional Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek,
Now Can They Overthrow Robert Michels?
Hi Pedro,
I follow Zeynep closely and we've covered this particular entry in our blog
as well,
these are if you will, the two sides of the same coin, and do not
necesseraly contradict each other,
Michael points out the real changes that took place through the use of these
media, and their further potential, while Zeynep points to the dangers that
do not just come from outside, but from within the peer to peer dynamic
itself
from the blog,
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/preferential-attachment-in-p2p-networks-is-tha
t-really-the-issue/2011/02/21
but especially this:
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/debating-the-iron-law-of-bureaucracy-and-the-p
ower-law-knowing-networks-as-an-alternative-to-scale-free-networks/2011/02/1
8
Paul Hartzog also had a comment on this,
Michel
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Pedro Gioya <pg at institutodeliderazgo.com>
wrote:
Hi
Look at this post on the same issue but with different perspective (Sure
you know, but anyway....)
http://technosociology.org/?p=366
Pedro
----- Original Message -----
From: Michel Bauwens <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
To: Michael Gurstein <mailto:gurstein at gmail.com>
Cc: p2p-foundation <mailto:p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org> ; Dougald
<mailto:dougald at schoolofeverything.com> Hine
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the
Institutional Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek,
Now Can They Overthrow Robert Michels?
This is really brilliant Michael and I warmly recommend it to our
listmembers,
Michel
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
wrote:
Michel,
I think this is one that you will find interesting...
M
---------------------------------------------
http://wp.me/pJQl5-5Z
"In this, I think that the revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia have access to
skills and resources which were unavailable to earlier movements that is-the
Internet, social networking, mobile telephony and perhaps most important,
the experience and knowledge of how to use these in support of collective
social ends."
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