[P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the Institutional Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek, Now Can They Overthrow Robert Michels?

Tue Mar 1 22:30:37 CET 2011

Hi Michael,

I completelely agree with the critique of the reductionist aspects of
network theory, which removes human intentionality from its considerations.

Nevertheless, even from our point of view of human emancipation and how to
get there, seeing that some structures and network topologies are more
likely than others to result in hierarchical solidification, is of paramount
interest.

Seen in this way, network theory insights, divorced from their philosopical
reductionism, can be very useful,

But you are right, people like Martin Luther King or Gandhi didn't ask
themselves, what are all the reasons why we will fail, but how can we
overcome the obstacles,

Michel

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Hi Michel,
>
> Thanks very much for the below and I must confess to not having read the
> comments on Zeynep's original post. I found the comments, particularly those
> of "Parliament of Things" more or less directly parallel to my own thoughts.
>
> I've never had a lot of interest in network analysis or network
> theory--thinking about it. I realize that the reason for this is that to my
> mind network analysis is a way of avoiding class or (in my case) community
> analysis where the issues are not simply about analysis but also about
> social change ("networks" are to "communities" (or P2P?) as "social and
> economic status" (SES) is to "class"--I go into this in a bit more depth in
> my little book "What is Community Informatics..."
> http://www.docstoc.com/MyDocuments/ ("Networks" in this approach, at least
> as presented in "network analysis" are statistical constructs a la SES and
> bear little relationship to the lived world of real networks, P2P
> associations, communities or whatever...
>
> The issue is not, I think, some "iron law" (or statistical regularity) but
> rather what it is that one wants to do and what the best way is of
> accomplishing it. If one wants the opportunity for democratic participation
> then there are potential means for achieving this and examples where it has
> been done. If one believes that P2P relationships are the necessary
> underpinnings for democratic participation then one can work through ways of
> realizing these. Of course after the fact it is possible to design analyses
> that show why one or another approach is more or less useful in achieving
> the goal (or not), but the pragmatics of moving forward toward the objective
> are, as several of your commentators pointed to, rather more in the hands of
> the participants than they are constrained by any kind of social
> behaviourism.
>
> (But maybe that's why I stopped being an academic sociologist 20 years ago
> or so... :-)
>
> Mike
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Michel Bauwens [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:00 AM .
> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list
> *Cc:* Pedro Gioya; Michael Gurstein; Dougald Hine; Paul B. Hartzog
> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to
> the Institutional Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni
> Mubarek, Now Can They Overthrow Robert Michels?
>
> Hi Pedro,
>
> I follow Zeynep closely and we've covered this particular entry in our blog
> as well,
>
> these are if you will, the two sides of the same coin, and do not
> necesseraly contradict each other,
>
> Michael points out the real changes that took place through the use of
> these media, and their further potential, while Zeynep points to the
> dangers  that do not just come from outside, but from within the peer to
> peer dynamic itself
>
> from the blog,
>
>
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/preferential-attachment-in-p2p-networks-is-that-really-the-issue/2011/02/21
>
> but especially this:
>
>
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/debating-the-iron-law-of-bureaucracy-and-the-power-law-knowing-networks-as-an-alternative-to-scale-free-networks/2011/02/18
>
> Paul Hartzog also had a comment on this,
>
> Michel
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Pedro Gioya <pg at institutodeliderazgo.com>wrote:
>
>>  Hi
>> Look at this post on the same issue but with different  perspective (Sure
>> you know, but anyway....)
>> http://technosociology.org/?p=366
>>
>> Pedro
>>
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* p2p-foundation <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org> ; Dougald Hine<dougald at schoolofeverything.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 28, 2011 6:52 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt
>> to the Institutional Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni
>> Mubarek, Now Can They Overthrow Robert Michels?
>>
>> This is really brilliant Michael and I warmly recommend it to our
>> listmembers,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Michel,
>>>
>>> I think this is one that you will find interesting...
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>> http://wp.me/pJQl5-5Z
>>>
>>> "In this, I think that the revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia have access
>>> to
>>> skills and resources which were unavailable to earlier movements that
>>> is-the
>>> Internet, social networking, mobile telephony and perhaps most important,
>>> the experience and knowledge of how to use these in support of collective
>>> social ends."
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
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>
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