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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=552264411-02032011>Hi
Michel, Pedro and everyone,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=552264411-02032011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=552264411-02032011>I
really don't want to launch into an on-going discussion of epistemologies here
but I think that much of sociology and sociological (read network in this
instance) analysis (now) suffers from precisely the same sets of issues as those
of classical economics i.e. that once one accepts certain assumptions everything
else flows forward with a smooth consistency until the system confronts reality
and then the whole thing is demonstrated as being the ideological mind game that
it is... </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=552264411-02032011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=552264411-02032011>The
necessary process of reconstruction has to begin either from a philosophical or
a practical critique of those assumptions (the best situation is when both are
done at the same time)... </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=552264411-02032011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=552264411-02032011>Accepting these "approaches" as "theoretical
insights" is I think rather in the form of choosing a particularly insightful
monetarist theory to explain and thus provide a strategy in response to the
recent/current financial crisis--the problem isn't in the theory but in the
assumptions (and thus the overall conceptual structure) on which it is
based. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=552264411-02032011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=552264411-02032011>So, to
my mind looking for insights useful to for example the p2p project in network
analysis leads inevitably to the profoundly disempowering, cynical and
ultimately ideological and wrong headed (and misdirectional) analysis that
Zeynab's "analysis" presents.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=552264411-02032011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=552264411-02032011>M</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<SPAN class=552264411-02032011><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial> </FONT></SPAN><BR><B>From:</B> Michel
Bauwens [mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 01,
2011 6:31 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael Gurstein<BR><B>Cc:</B> P2P Foundation
mailing list; Pedro Gioya; Dougald Hine; Paul B. Hartzog<SPAN
class=552264411-02032011><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial> </FONT></SPAN><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] FW:
Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the Institutional Challenges
of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek, Now Can They Overthrow Robert
Michels?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Hi Michael,<BR><BR>I completelely agree with the
critique of the reductionist aspects of network theory, which removes human
intentionality from its considerations.<BR><BR>Nevertheless, even from our
point of view of human emancipation and how to get there, seeing that some
structures and network topologies are more likely than others to result in
hierarchical solidification, is of paramount interest.<BR><BR>Seen in this
way, network theory insights, divorced from their philosopical reductionism,
can be very useful,<BR><BR>But you are right, people like Martin Luther King
or Gandhi didn't ask themselves, what are all the reasons why we will fail,
but how can we overcome the obstacles,<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Michael Gurstein <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Hi
Michel,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Thanks very much for the
below and I must confess to not having read the comments on Zeynep's
original post. I found the comments, particularly those of "Parliament of
Things" more or less directly parallel to my own
thoughts.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>I've never had a lot
of interest in network analysis or network theory--thinking about it. I
realize that the reason for this is that to my mind network analysis is a
way of avoiding class or (in my case) community analysis where the issues
are not simply about analysis but also about social change ("networks" are
to "communities" (or P2P?) as "social and economic status" (SES) is to
"class"--I go into this in a bit more depth in my little book "What is
Community Informatics..." <A href="http://www.docstoc.com/MyDocuments/"
target=_blank>http://www.docstoc.com/MyDocuments/</A> ("Networks" in
this approach, at least as presented in "network analysis" are statistical
constructs a la SES and bear little relationship to the lived world of real
networks, P2P associations, communities or whatever...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>The issue is not, I think,
some "iron law" (or statistical regularity) but rather what it is that one
wants to do and what the best way is of accomplishing it. If one wants
the opportunity for democratic participation then there are potential means
for achieving this and examples where it has been done. If one believes that
P2P relationships are the necessary underpinnings for democratic
participation then one can work through ways of realizing these. Of course
after the fact it is possible to design analyses that show why one or
another approach is more or less useful in achieving the goal (or not), but
the pragmatics of moving forward toward the objective are, as several
of your commentators pointed to, rather more in the hands of the
participants than they are constrained by any kind of social
behaviourism.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>(But maybe that's why I
stopped being an academic sociologist 20 years ago or so...
:-)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT
color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Mike</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us align=left><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma>
<DIV class=im>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Michel Bauwens
[mailto:<A href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com"
target=_blank>michelsub2004@gmail.com</A>] <BR></DIV>
<DIV class=im><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:00 AM<SPAN><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial> . </FONT></SPAN><BR><B>To:</B> P2P
Foundation mailing list<BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><B>Cc:</B> Pedro Gioya; Michael Gurstein; Dougald Hine; Paul
B. Hartzog<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT
Lessons of Revolt to the Institutional Challenges of Reconstruction: They
overthrew Hosni Mubarek, Now Can They Overthrow Robert
Michels?<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>Hi Pedro,<BR><BR>I follow Zeynep closely and we've covered
this particular entry in our blog as well,<BR><BR>these are if you will,
the two sides of the same coin, and do not necesseraly contradict each
other,<BR><BR>Michael points out the real changes that took place through
the use of these media, and their further potential, while Zeynep points
to the dangers that do not just come from outside, but from within
the peer to peer dynamic itself<BR><BR>from the blog,<BR><BR><A
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/preferential-attachment-in-p2p-networks-is-that-really-the-issue/2011/02/21"
target=_blank>http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/preferential-attachment-in-p2p-networks-is-that-really-the-issue/2011/02/21</A><BR><BR>but
especially this:<BR><BR><A
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/debating-the-iron-law-of-bureaucracy-and-the-power-law-knowing-networks-as-an-alternative-to-scale-free-networks/2011/02/18"
target=_blank>http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/debating-the-iron-law-of-bureaucracy-and-the-power-law-knowing-networks-as-an-alternative-to-scale-free-networks/2011/02/18</A><BR><BR>Paul
Hartzog also had a comment on this,<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Pedro Gioya <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:pg@institutodeliderazgo.com"
target=_blank>pg@institutodeliderazgo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Look at this post on the same issue but
with different perspective (Sure you know, but
anyway....)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://technosociology.org/?p=366"
target=_blank>http://technosociology.org/?p=366</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Pedro</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228)"><B>From:</B> <A
title=michelsub2004@gmail.com href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Michel Bauwens</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=gurstein@gmail.com
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target=_blank>Michael Gurstein</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org"
target=_blank>p2p-foundation</A> ; <A
title=dougald@schoolofeverything.com
href="mailto:dougald@schoolofeverything.com" target=_blank>Dougald
Hine</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 28, 2011
6:52 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] FW:
Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the Institutional
Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek, Now Can
They Overthrow Robert Michels?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>This is really brilliant Michael and I warmly recommend
it to our listmembers,<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Michael
Gurstein <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target=_blank>gurstein@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Michel,<BR><BR>I think this is one that you will
find
interesting...<BR><BR>M<BR><BR>---------------------------------------------<BR><A
href="http://wp.me/pJQl5-5Z"
target=_blank>http://wp.me/pJQl5-5Z</A><BR><BR>"In this, I think
that the revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia have access to<BR>skills
and resources which were unavailable to earlier movements that
is-the<BR>Internet, social networking, mobile telephony and perhaps
most important,<BR>the experience and knowledge of how to use these
in support of collective<BR>social
ends."<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>P2P
Foundation: <A href="http://p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.net</A> - <A
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net"
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href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</A>; Discuss: <A
href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR>Updates:
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<P></P>
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