[P2P-F] a new type of platform?

Tue Jul 26 23:28:13 CEST 2011

Nicholas, why don't you document all these "actually open-source"
technologies in a semantic mediawiki (OSE, P2P-F, Sarapis, etc) and we can
then all work together to integrate them into the rapidly developing
free/libre/opensource knowledge commons.

I love ethnographies and think that the return to crafting is the key to a
decent future.  I link people to Useful Work vs. Useless
Toil<http://www.marxists.org/archive/morris/works/1884/useful.htm>all
the time.  I also like legos.  No one here is stopping you from
scratching your own itch.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Nicholas Roberts <niccolo.roberts at gmail.com
> wrote:

>
> why does the OSE exclude actually existing open-source, public domain
> technologies i.e. crafts such as wood work, knitting and fabrics, gardening,
> fermenting, cooking, animal husbandry etc?
>
> these largely oral traditions defy easy modelling, try and do a Blender
> file for a mandella garden or a food forest ? there is a wealth of
> traditional knowledge that is being lost and has substantially more value
> than a top down techno-utopian benevolent dictatorship
>
> in nearly all fields of human endeavour now, there is a festish for
> computerization, automation, virtualization and modelling
>
> in finance, science, economics, architecture there is a market advantage to
> being able to present a gee-whiz computer model, an interactive graphic,
> something that looks good on a screen or in CAD
>
> we've come a very long way from the back-to-the-land movement of the 60s
> and 70s - which was inspired by and inspired works like Christopher
> Alexanders A Pattern Language - which was based on living patterns from
> nature, from existing human settlements
>
> the engineering approach to life is reaching a fundamental limitation, the
> earth is overloaded by human machine like designs and their manifestations
> i.e a stream becomes a culverted drain, a lake becomes a hydro-electric
> power generating dam, a food forest becomes a plantation, and now a village
> becomes a lego set
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> hi Nicholas, can you elaborate on that critique? have you written anything
>> else on it?
>>
>> there are some quite heavy accusations in here ... totalitarianism,
>> fetish, which would need some backup <g>
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts <
>> niccolo.roberts at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and
>>> technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous
>>> distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate
>>> technology
>>>
>>> its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication
>>> and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it
>>> doesnt exist
>>>
>>> real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate
>>> yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of
>>> donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
>>>
>>> the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind <
>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ben.  The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more
>>>> strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design,
>>>> branding, apparel, music, parties etc.  We also need complete narratives.
>>>> One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable
>>>> narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc.  A friend told me last
>>>> night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to
>>>> understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the
>>>> message five years ago.  So yes, I'm interested in marketing the
>>>> free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to
>>>> connect about this issue.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <solaureum at gmail.com
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sam,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land
>>>>> Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was
>>>>> really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something
>>>>> very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production
>>>>> paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop
>>>>> and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and
>>>>> parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to
>>>>> integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe
>>>>> sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and
>>>>> participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share
>>>>> compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and
>>>>> tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person,
>>>>> and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a
>>>>> more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation
>>>>> to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting
>>>>> home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately
>>>>> linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still
>>>>> seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a
>>>>> competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're
>>>>> all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage
>>>>> points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained
>>>>> toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous
>>>>> demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms
>>>>> that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the
>>>>> more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their
>>>>> attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's
>>>>> say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not
>>>>> that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of
>>>>> agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt
>>>>> the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people
>>>>> on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product
>>>>> which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where
>>>>> they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and
>>>>> fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural
>>>>> landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all
>>>>> that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with
>>>>> familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we
>>>>> identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real
>>>>> results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of
>>>>> goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone
>>>>> about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a
>>>>> way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background
>>>>> could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do
>>>>> believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems
>>>>> worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation
>>>>> here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd
>>>>> really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics
>>>>> with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links
>>>>> to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I
>>>>> imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will
>>>>> update soon!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the
>>>>>> side with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of
>>>>>> Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let
>>>>>> me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more
>>>>>> complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in
>>>>>> poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
>>>>>> >> Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to
>>>>>> share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm
>>>>>> thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable
>>>>>> circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science,
>>>>>> spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my
>>>>>> twitte stream at v17us though.
>>>>>> >> Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with
>>>>>> anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture
>>>>>> approaches, the first best group to connect with is
>>>>>> http://www.landinstitute.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are interested in building community based agricultural
>>>>>> enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing
>>>>>> ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> hi Benjamin,
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> this promises to be very interesting,
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of
>>>>>> marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale
>>>>>> through open design cooperation ...
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been
>>>>>> active in the field,
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Michel
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have
>>>>>> allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and
>>>>>> implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting
>>>>>> opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy
>>>>>> surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into
>>>>>> many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real
>>>>>> foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow,
>>>>>> I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter
>>>>>> paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication,
>>>>>> here they are:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Sufficiency Alert
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable
>>>>>> primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger
>>>>>> play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a
>>>>>> clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant
>>>>>> control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets
>>>>>> now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand
>>>>>> for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic,
>>>>>> conscientious preference:  without viable alternatives in place, industrial
>>>>>> agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge
>>>>>> of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful
>>>>>> (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically
>>>>>> re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production
>>>>>> is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums,
>>>>>> perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are
>>>>>> fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the
>>>>>> grand chaordic system that is human culture.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to
>>>>>> sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within
>>>>>> current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of
>>>>>> higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an
>>>>>> excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving)
>>>>>> over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has
>>>>>> noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic
>>>>>> activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious
>>>>>> containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale
>>>>>> development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are
>>>>>> scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property,
>>>>>> they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they
>>>>>> are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median
>>>>>> standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules
>>>>>> are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively
>>>>>> expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial
>>>>>> society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible
>>>>>> surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal
>>>>>> value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified
>>>>>> ROI!
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> hi Ben,
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable,
>>>>>> which your piece is,
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to
>>>>>> elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph,
>>>>>> you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to
>>>>>> know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to
>>>>>> the table that wasn't there before?
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well,
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type:
>>>>>> revaluolation!
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it
>>>>>> is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let
>>>>>> me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions
>>>>>> to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production
>>>>>> infrastructures...and underlying values.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you
>>>>>> want to take a look:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz15fU/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=COfC6ZMG
>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but
>>>>>> if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and
>>>>>> leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem!
>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some
>>>>>> wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps..
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> --
>>>>>> >>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> --
>>>>>> >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > --
>>>>>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>>> Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC
>>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
>>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Devin Balkind
>>>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>>>> @devinbalkind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Devin Balkind
Director, Sarapis Foundation
devin at sarapisfoundation.org
@devinbalkind
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