[P2P-F] a new type of platform?

[Nicholas Roberts]

why does the OSE exclude actually existing open-source, public domain
technologies i.e. crafts such as wood work, knitting and fabrics, gardening,
fermenting, cooking, animal husbandry etc?

these largely oral traditions defy easy modelling, try and do a Blender file
for a mandella garden or a food forest ? there is a wealth of traditional
knowledge that is being lost and has substantially more value than a top
down techno-utopian benevolent dictatorship

in nearly all fields of human endeavour now, there is a festish for
computerization, automation, virtualization and modelling

in finance, science, economics, architecture there is a market advantage to
being able to present a gee-whiz computer model, an interactive graphic,
something that looks good on a screen or in CAD

we've come a very long way from the back-to-the-land movement of the 60s and
70s - which was inspired by and inspired works like Christopher Alexanders A
Pattern Language - which was based on living patterns from nature, from
existing human settlements

the engineering approach to life is reaching a fundamental limitation, the
earth is overloaded by human machine like designs and their manifestations
i.e a stream becomes a culverted drain, a lake becomes a hydro-electric
power generating dam, a food forest becomes a plantation, and now a village
becomes a lego set

On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> hi Nicholas, can you elaborate on that critique? have you written anything
> else on it?
>
> there are some quite heavy accusations in here ... totalitarianism, fetish,
> which would need some backup <g>
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts <
> niccolo.roberts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and
>> technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous
>> distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate
>> technology
>>
>> its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication
>> and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it
>> doesnt exist
>>
>> real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate
>> yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of
>> donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
>>
>> the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind <
>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Ben.  The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more
>>> strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design,
>>> branding, apparel, music, parties etc.  We also need complete narratives.
>>> One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable
>>> narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc.  A friend told me last
>>> night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to
>>> understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the
>>> message five years ago.  So yes, I'm interested in marketing the
>>> free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to
>>> connect about this issue.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <solaureum at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Sam,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land
>>>> Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was
>>>> really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something
>>>> very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production
>>>> paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop
>>>> and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and
>>>> parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to
>>>> integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe
>>>> sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and
>>>> participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share
>>>> compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and
>>>> tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person,
>>>> and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a
>>>> more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation
>>>> to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting
>>>> home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately
>>>> linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still
>>>> seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a
>>>> competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're
>>>> all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage
>>>> points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained
>>>> toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation
>>>> growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not
>>>> unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people
>>>> we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention,
>>>> their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't
>>>> have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any
>>>> rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and
>>>> stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of
>>>> market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they
>>>> didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which,
>>>> experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are
>>>> at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity
>>>> of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This
>>>> has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all
>>>> that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with
>>>> familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we
>>>> identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real
>>>> results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of
>>>> goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone
>>>> about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a
>>>> way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background
>>>> could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do
>>>> believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems
>>>> worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation
>>>> here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd
>>>> really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics
>>>> with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links
>>>> to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I
>>>> imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will
>>>> update soon!
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side
>>>>> with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of
>>>>> Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let
>>>>> me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more
>>>>> complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in
>>>>> poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
>>>>> >> Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share
>>>>> as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so
>>>>> hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide
>>>>> backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and
>>>>> speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us
>>>>> though.
>>>>> >> Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with
>>>>> anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture
>>>>> approaches, the first best group to connect with is
>>>>> http://www.landinstitute.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are interested in building community based agricultural
>>>>> enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing
>>>>> ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> hi Benjamin,
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> this promises to be very interesting,
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of
>>>>> marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale
>>>>> through open design cooperation ...
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active
>>>>> in the field,
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Michel
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have
>>>>> allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and
>>>>> implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting
>>>>> opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy
>>>>> surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into
>>>>> many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real
>>>>> foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow,
>>>>> I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter
>>>>> paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication,
>>>>> here they are:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Sufficiency Alert
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable
>>>>> primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger
>>>>> play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a
>>>>> clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant
>>>>> control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets
>>>>> now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand
>>>>> for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic,
>>>>> conscientious preference:  without viable alternatives in place, industrial
>>>>> agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge
>>>>> of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful
>>>>> (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically
>>>>> re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production
>>>>> is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums,
>>>>> perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are
>>>>> fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the
>>>>> grand chaordic system that is human culture.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to
>>>>> sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within
>>>>> current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of
>>>>> higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an
>>>>> excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving)
>>>>> over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has
>>>>> noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic
>>>>> activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious
>>>>> containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale
>>>>> development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are
>>>>> scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property,
>>>>> they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they
>>>>> are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median
>>>>> standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules
>>>>> are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively
>>>>> expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial
>>>>> society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible
>>>>> surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal
>>>>> value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified
>>>>> ROI!
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> hi Ben,
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable,
>>>>> which your piece is,
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to
>>>>> elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph,
>>>>> you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to
>>>>> know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to
>>>>> the table that wasn't there before?
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well,
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type:
>>>>> revaluolation!
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it
>>>>> is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let
>>>>> me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions
>>>>> to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production
>>>>> infrastructures...and underlying values.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you
>>>>> want to take a look:
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz15fU/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=COfC6ZMG
>>>>> >>>>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if
>>>>> there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and
>>>>> leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem!
>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki
>>>>> editing, and even solid tests and steps..
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> --
>>>>> >>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
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>>>>> >>>>>
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>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> --
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>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> >
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>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>> Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC
>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>>
>>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Devin Balkind
>>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>>> @devinbalkind
>>>
>>>
>>
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