[P2P-F] a new type of platform?

Tue Jul 19 08:02:43 CEST 2011

hi Nicholas, can you elaborate on that critique? have you written anything
else on it?

there are some quite heavy accusations in here ... totalitarianism, fetish,
which would need some backup <g>

Michel

On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts <
niccolo.roberts at gmail.com> wrote:

> personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically
> interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from
> existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
>
> its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication
> and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it
> doesnt exist
>
> real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate
> yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of
> donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
>
> the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind <
> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Ben.  The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more
>> strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design,
>> branding, apparel, music, parties etc.  We also need complete narratives.
>> One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable
>> narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc.  A friend told me last
>> night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to
>> understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the
>> message five years ago.  So yes, I'm interested in marketing the
>> free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to
>> connect about this issue.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <solaureum at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Sam,
>>>
>>>
>>> I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land
>>> Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was
>>> really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something
>>> very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production
>>> paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop
>>> and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and
>>> parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to
>>> integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe
>>> sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and
>>> participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share
>>> compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and
>>> tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person,
>>> and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a
>>> more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation
>>> to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting
>>> home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately
>>> linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still
>>> seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a
>>> competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're
>>> all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage
>>> points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained
>>> toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
>>>
>>>
>>> Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation
>>> growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not
>>> unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people
>>> we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention,
>>> their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't
>>> have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any
>>> rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and
>>> stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of
>>> market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they
>>> didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which,
>>> experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are
>>> at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity
>>> of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This
>>> has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
>>>
>>>
>>> The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all
>>> that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with
>>> familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we
>>> identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real
>>> results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of
>>> goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone
>>> about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a
>>> way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background
>>> could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do
>>> believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems
>>> worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
>>>
>>>
>>> I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation
>>> here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd
>>> really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics
>>> with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links
>>> to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I
>>> imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will
>>> update soon!
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>  On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side
>>>> with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of
>>>> Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let
>>>> me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more
>>>> complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in
>>>> poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
>>>> >> Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share
>>>> as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so
>>>> hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide
>>>> backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and
>>>> speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us
>>>> though.
>>>> >> Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone
>>>> interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture
>>>> approaches, the first best group to connect with is
>>>> http://www.landinstitute.org/
>>>>
>>>> If you are interested in building community based agricultural
>>>> enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing
>>>> ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> hi Benjamin,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> this promises to be very interesting,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of
>>>> marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale
>>>> through open design cooperation ...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active
>>>> in the field,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Michel
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have
>>>> allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and
>>>> implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting
>>>> opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy
>>>> surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into
>>>> many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real
>>>> foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow,
>>>> I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter
>>>> paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication,
>>>> here they are:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Sufficiency Alert
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable
>>>> primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger
>>>> play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a
>>>> clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant
>>>> control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets
>>>> now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand
>>>> for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic,
>>>> conscientious preference:  without viable alternatives in place, industrial
>>>> agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of
>>>> current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in
>>>> scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically
>>>> re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production
>>>> is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums,
>>>> perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are
>>>> fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the
>>>> grand chaordic system that is human culture.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to
>>>> sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within
>>>> current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of
>>>> higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an
>>>> excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving)
>>>> over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has
>>>> noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic
>>>> activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious
>>>> containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale
>>>> development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are
>>>> scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property,
>>>> they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they
>>>> are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median
>>>> standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules
>>>> are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively
>>>> expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial
>>>> society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible
>>>> surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal
>>>> value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified
>>>> ROI!
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> hi Ben,
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable,
>>>> which your piece is,
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to
>>>> elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph,
>>>> you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to
>>>> know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to
>>>> the table that wasn't there before?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well,
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type:
>>>> revaluolation!
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is
>>>> not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me
>>>> know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to
>>>> bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production
>>>> infrastructures...and underlying values.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you
>>>> want to take a look:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz15fU/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=COfC6ZMG
>>>> >>>>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if
>>>> there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and
>>>> leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem!
>>>> >>>>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki
>>>> editing, and even solid tests and steps..
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> --
>>>> >>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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>>>> >>>
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>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>> >
>>>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>> >
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>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Sam Rose
>>>> Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC
>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>
>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Devin Balkind
>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>> @devinbalkind
>>
>>
>
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