[P2P-F] a new type of platform?
Nicholas Roberts
niccolo.roberts at gmail.com
Wed Jul 27 00:01:20 CEST 2011
ok, watch this space http://industrialpermaculture.org
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Devin Balkind
<devin at sarapisfoundation.org>wrote:
> Nicholas, why don't you document all these "actually open-source"
> technologies in a semantic mediawiki (OSE, P2P-F, Sarapis, etc) and we can
> then all work together to integrate them into the rapidly developing
> free/libre/opensource knowledge commons.
>
> I love ethnographies and think that the return to crafting is the key to a
> decent future. I link people to Useful Work vs. Useless Toil<http://www.marxists.org/archive/morris/works/1884/useful.htm>all the time. I also like legos. No one here is stopping you from
> scratching your own itch.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Nicholas Roberts <
> niccolo.roberts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> why does the OSE exclude actually existing open-source, public domain
>> technologies i.e. crafts such as wood work, knitting and fabrics, gardening,
>> fermenting, cooking, animal husbandry etc?
>>
>> these largely oral traditions defy easy modelling, try and do a Blender
>> file for a mandella garden or a food forest ? there is a wealth of
>> traditional knowledge that is being lost and has substantially more value
>> than a top down techno-utopian benevolent dictatorship
>>
>> in nearly all fields of human endeavour now, there is a festish for
>> computerization, automation, virtualization and modelling
>>
>> in finance, science, economics, architecture there is a market advantage
>> to being able to present a gee-whiz computer model, an interactive graphic,
>> something that looks good on a screen or in CAD
>>
>> we've come a very long way from the back-to-the-land movement of the 60s
>> and 70s - which was inspired by and inspired works like Christopher
>> Alexanders A Pattern Language - which was based on living patterns from
>> nature, from existing human settlements
>>
>> the engineering approach to life is reaching a fundamental limitation, the
>> earth is overloaded by human machine like designs and their manifestations
>> i.e a stream becomes a culverted drain, a lake becomes a hydro-electric
>> power generating dam, a food forest becomes a plantation, and now a village
>> becomes a lego set
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> hi Nicholas, can you elaborate on that critique? have you written
>>> anything else on it?
>>>
>>> there are some quite heavy accusations in here ... totalitarianism,
>>> fetish, which would need some backup <g>
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts <
>>> niccolo.roberts at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and
>>>> technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous
>>>> distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate
>>>> technology
>>>>
>>>> its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital
>>>> fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design
>>>> it, it doesnt exist
>>>>
>>>> real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate
>>>> yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of
>>>> donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
>>>>
>>>> the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind <
>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ben. The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more
>>>>> strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design,
>>>>> branding, apparel, music, parties etc. We also need complete narratives.
>>>>> One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable
>>>>> narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc. A friend told me last
>>>>> night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to
>>>>> understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the
>>>>> message five years ago. So yes, I'm interested in marketing the
>>>>> free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to
>>>>> connect about this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Sam,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land
>>>>>> Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was
>>>>>> really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something
>>>>>> very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production
>>>>>> paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop
>>>>>> and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and
>>>>>> parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to
>>>>>> integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe
>>>>>> sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and
>>>>>> participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share
>>>>>> compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and
>>>>>> tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person,
>>>>>> and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a
>>>>>> more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation
>>>>>> to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting
>>>>>> home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately
>>>>>> linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still
>>>>>> seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a
>>>>>> competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're
>>>>>> all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage
>>>>>> points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained
>>>>>> toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous
>>>>>> demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms
>>>>>> that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the
>>>>>> more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their
>>>>>> attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's
>>>>>> say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not
>>>>>> that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of
>>>>>> agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt
>>>>>> the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people
>>>>>> on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product
>>>>>> which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where
>>>>>> they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and
>>>>>> fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural
>>>>>> landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it
>>>>>> all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick
>>>>>> with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of
>>>>>> everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest
>>>>>> that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for
>>>>>> a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and
>>>>>> convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal
>>>>>> perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my
>>>>>> unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition,
>>>>>> one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some
>>>>>> interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in
>>>>>> contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold
>>>>>> promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this
>>>>>> range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some
>>>>>> instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some
>>>>>> of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or
>>>>>> two, but will update soon!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the
>>>>>>> side with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of
>>>>>>> Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let
>>>>>>> me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more
>>>>>>> complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in
>>>>>>> poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
>>>>>>> >> Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to
>>>>>>> share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm
>>>>>>> thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable
>>>>>>> circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science,
>>>>>>> spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my
>>>>>>> twitte stream at v17us though.
>>>>>>> >> Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with
>>>>>>> anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture
>>>>>>> approaches, the first best group to connect with is
>>>>>>> http://www.landinstitute.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you are interested in building community based agricultural
>>>>>>> enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing
>>>>>>> ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> hi Benjamin,
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> this promises to be very interesting,
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of
>>>>>>> marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale
>>>>>>> through open design cooperation ...
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been
>>>>>>> active in the field,
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Michel
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have
>>>>>>> allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and
>>>>>>> implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting
>>>>>>> opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy
>>>>>>> surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into
>>>>>>> many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real
>>>>>>> foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow,
>>>>>>> I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter
>>>>>>> paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication,
>>>>>>> here they are:
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Sufficiency Alert
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable
>>>>>>> primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger
>>>>>>> play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a
>>>>>>> clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant
>>>>>>> control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets
>>>>>>> now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand
>>>>>>> for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic,
>>>>>>> conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial
>>>>>>> agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge
>>>>>>> of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful
>>>>>>> (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically
>>>>>>> re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production
>>>>>>> is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums,
>>>>>>> perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are
>>>>>>> fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the
>>>>>>> grand chaordic system that is human culture.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to
>>>>>>> sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within
>>>>>>> current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of
>>>>>>> higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an
>>>>>>> excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving)
>>>>>>> over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has
>>>>>>> noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic
>>>>>>> activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious
>>>>>>> containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale
>>>>>>> development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are
>>>>>>> scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property,
>>>>>>> they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they
>>>>>>> are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median
>>>>>>> standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules
>>>>>>> are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively
>>>>>>> expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial
>>>>>>> society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible
>>>>>>> surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal
>>>>>>> value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified
>>>>>>> ROI!
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> hi Ben,
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable,
>>>>>>> which your piece is,
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to
>>>>>>> elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph,
>>>>>>> you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to
>>>>>>> know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to
>>>>>>> the table that wasn't there before?
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well,
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type:
>>>>>>> revaluolation!
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
>>>>>>> solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it
>>>>>>> is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let
>>>>>>> me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions
>>>>>>> to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production
>>>>>>> infrastructures...and underlying values.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you
>>>>>>> want to take a look:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz15fU/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=COfC6ZMG
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but
>>>>>>> if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and
>>>>>>> leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem!
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some
>>>>>>> wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps..
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> --
>>>>>>> >>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> --
>>>>>>> >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>>>> Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC
>>>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>>> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
>>>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Devin Balkind
>>>>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>>>>> @devinbalkind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Devin Balkind
> Director, Sarapis Foundation
> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
> @devinbalkind
>
>
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